Major Uh-oh! 961D Engine Failure

Colin King

Well-known Member
I now have a damaged engine and a nice piece of pasture art.

Yesterday I mentioned on the N forum that I drove the 961D out to the farm last week. I needed to get some plowing and planting done for some late season annual forages for livestock finishing. I was planning on plowing today.

Tractor started up very easily. I hooked up the plow, made the adjustments to the PA rims, and headed over to the field I was planning on turning over. While closing a gate to keep the beeves in, the engine made a banging sound and abruptly stopped.

This happened at a low idle, thankfully, and not at a high RPM while plowing.

When this happened, the tractor had been running for about an hour. Oil pressure had been acceptable at 15psi slow idle and 40psi at half throttle RPM shortly beforehand.

I'm going to need to have this repair job professionally done as diesel engine work is above my pay grade (wish my Grandpa were around, as he was a Navy trained diesel mechanic).

When talking to shops, what kind of questions should I be asking? Should I do a full rebuild regardless of the scope of damage? And what are the likely areas of damage? Any cost estimates for an engine rebuild? Shop rates here run between $60-$80/hr.

Thanks for the guidance!
Colin, MN
 
If it made a banging sound and abruptly stopped, something inside is most likely broken (crank, rod, etc.). If I were tasked to work on this for you, I would not be giving you any kind of an estimate until it was completely torn down.
 
I can't post the words I said when I read this!
Things go that way some times, I know that,
but I hate it when it happens around here!
Hopefully its not as bad as it sounds.
Only advise I can offer is not to go solely on price.
If the more experienced guy says it needs an extra $50
more than the tractor jockey, its probably $50 well spent.
I'm likely preaching to choir telling you that, but its true!
Best of luck to you Colin.
 
My heart sank as I read this Colin.
It's a sad affair for you.
Don't rule out dropping a used engine into it - either gas or diesel. A guy can generally pick up a good running used engine for a Lot less than he can rebuild one.
Keep us posted on this.
 
Fair enough. It"s a tall order. Over on the N board, folks usually say that a complete rebuild will run in the ballpark of $1300-$1500. I guess if someone who had one done recently was able to say, well it"ll run $3k, it"s nice to know that that"ll be how long the beer fridge will be empty :-(

Colin
 
I would bet you should plan on at least $3K for this, better to plan high and be pleased. Where are you located?
 
Thanks, Royse! I absolutely agree with you regarding $$ spent and rebuilding. I've already talked to my farming "mentor" and he's given me a couple of shop names. We have community coffee at church tomorrow, and I'll ask a couple of my neighbors for recommendations as well.

In a way, this was play time on this tractor. Yes, I needed it to do work, but work the N can do as well. It's good that this happened when I wasn't 100% counting on this tractor to get farm work done.

I'll keep you posted!

Colin
 
David, That's very helpful. Thank you. I'm in West Central Minnesota about half way between Minneapolis and Fargo.

Colin
 
That would be my guess too that something pretty significant, such as crank or rod, was damaged beyond repair. I just looked at the used engines showcrop mentioned. There was also one for sale locally about 12 months ago. I might be able to track that down. All in all, I'll probably have to wait until after fall harvest season is done before I can start this project.

Thanks!

Colin
 
Sorry to hear of your misfortune.

Wish you were closer, as I am thinking of picking up an 841 diesel (complete). Might part out, and the engine and injection pump was supposed to have been rebuilt before it was parked (probably 8 years ago). Could make you a deal on an engine. I just don't know how to get it to you in MN, from Virginia.

Kevin
 
Hello Colin , First off you are looking at at least $5000 to rebuild your engine correctly if it is salvageable at all , most of the info you are getting is WRONG and does not apply to these Diesel engines plain ans simple . If you do not do it correctly I can just about guarantee it will break a Crankshaft or Conn. rod within the first 200 hours and you will be right back where you are now . Do it right the first time and you will not have to do it again . I have rebuilt 100's of these Diesels during the last 20 years and have never had a failure but I have NEVER skimped on the rebuild . With good close up pictures of your engine I can tell you what the cause of your failure was . 15 pounds of oil pressure at idle IS NOT ACCEPTABLE nor is 40 pounds running , it should be 40 at idle and 60 running . Every part you can save from your engine will have to Magnafluxed to check for cracks as will every part you buy (crank, rods, block, head). Crank, rods, pistons, flywheel, front pulley(cast iron type not stamped steel type) and hub will have to be balanced . Connecting rod bolts will have to be replaced . Diesel cranks CANNOT be turned any more then .020 undersize . Plus all of the standard rebuild practices should be followed . Thanks Tony Jacobs
 
Colin, I spent 1200 on my 8N for a rebuild. Diesels are a bit more expensive. If you can find a reputable shop that can come in at 3K I'd be very pleased. May be time to look for another tractor. 4/560 IH gassers are around that 3K mark or less anymore. 3/4000 Fords are in higher demand so are more expensive. Kinda a shame, from the pictures it was a good looking tractor.

Good luck.

Rick
 
If it's broke now open it up and see what's inside , this may let you better prepare yourself for the task at hand.
 
looked at your pic in the other post.
That's a real shame. very nice tractor.
And after reading Tony's post...wow, ouch
Being a fairly rare tractor (and nice),
I'd swap in a good running gas motor to get it back in the game,
and then get the diesel fixed right as my money would allow.

Pull the pan and take a look, but big banging, and then quitting is never good, and always expensive.........
 
Sorry for your misfortune. I have a crankshaft I don't need if it would be any help.
 
I've never been inside a diesel 172, but is it possible this isn't a catastrophic failure? The sudden stoppage doesn't sound like a rod (unless it was already knocking and you just couldn't hear it). I'd do a little investigation before assuming the worst. Can the crank be turned in either direction? Take off the valve cover and see if the valves are working. Is it possible to tell if the injection pump is turning? If you drain the oil and find big chunks of metal, you're looking at serious problems.
 
Kevin,

Drop me an email when you have a chance. My email is open in the Classic View of the forum.

Colin
 
Hi Tony,

Is the maximum undersizing of 0.020 specific to the 172ci engine or to diesels in general? Is this something someone experienced with diesel overhauling would know, or would experience with Fords be necessary?

Do you have a recommendation on parts sources?

Are your rebuilding services for hire? If so, where are you located?

Thanks,
Colin
 
Rick, Do you know of a rebuild shop that handles diesels? At the moment the best recommendation I have is Olson's in Clarissa. They specialize in diesel trucks but also do some tractors apparently. I'll call them after the holiday. If I recall, there's an old multi-generation family shop up in Hewitt, but I can't remember their name. I know they specialize in farm equipment repair and have a forge, but I don't know if they do engines.

Thanks,
Colin
 
More investigation is definitely a good idea. I do think that it was knocking and I just didn't recognize it. It's been nearly 20 years since I last spent much time around diesel tractors, and those were the 6 cylinder Olivers on my Grandfather's farm. I've more recently spent some time with the 3 cylinder diesels. They sound like they are about to fall apart compared to the bigger sixes. I just figured the 4 cylinder Fords also ran rougher, like the three cylinders.

I think this is a combination of worn engine and new user unable to identify symptoms.

Colin
 
Parts can be found but as rare as that engine is it may take some time. Also, it will take some money if major work is required. If you had the money and since you know something about Olivers I would go out and find something such as a 1600 diesel for everyday use and keep the 961 as semi-retired since parts will be increasingly difficult to obtain as time goes forward. A 1600 would pull three bottoms very well. The only thing that would change my mind is if the terrain is steep in some spots where it is much safer to use a low profile tractor.
 
Those engines had a balancer installed at a later date. Some of the balancers were dealer installed with a kit. A lot of the later tractors were factory installed. Some mechanics will leave the balancer out when overhauling. When left out the tractor will run very rough or also run rough if the balancer is not timed right.
 
Why not drop your pan and confirm what needs done. I'd say the safe money is on a broken crank... Don't waste time taking Rick up on his offer. Those cranks don't appear in your lap like that every day.

Rod
 

Colin, we have a couple of brothers in Urbank that do pretty good work and my son in law is good friends with a guy with a shop north of us. They do a lot of Ford stuff there. I'll talk to him today and give this guy a call. Maybe see if they would want to work on it. They would at least know where to find parts at I think.

Rick
 
I would inspect the balancer assembly and would not spend any more money till the balancers are in proper condition. I know of two instances where four cylinder diesel tractors were run without the balancers and they did not go very many hours without catastrophic failure. Park that tractor til that issue is dealt with.

Like I said before go out and get a Oliver 6 cylinder diesel tractor that has great natural engine balance, has good power, and has good fuel economy. Heck, for something different maybe I would look at putting a Perkins engine in or a Cummins in that 961.
 
(quoted from post at 07:41:46 07/04/14) I would inspect the balancer assembly and would not spend any more money till the balancers are in proper condition. I know of two instances where four cylinder diesel tractors were run without the balancers and they did not go very many hours without catastrophic failure. Park that tractor til that issue is dealt with.

Like I said before go out and get a Oliver 6 cylinder diesel tractor that has great natural engine balance, has good power, and has good fuel economy. Heck, for something different maybe I would look at putting a Perkins engine in or a Cummins in that 961.

The problem Colin has is dealer support. There are none where he's at. And the closest AGCO place to him that I know of has really poor support. I think he's have to go to Aldrich to get good support.

Rick
 
He is going to have to give on some front. An Oliver 1600 is reasonable money and will go a long time if it has had proper care and continues to receive proper care. Can't buy much of anything good for 3000 to 3500 dollars anymore. If he can't do that and needs another tractor then he better figure 5000 dollars plus for a Ford 5000 diesel. Same for an IH 656 or 706 diesel. Used to be you could buy either in a diesel for the same money as an Oliver but stupid people are paying stupid money for them now. I would feel uncomfortable dumping a lot of money in that 961 just to go out and work it again knowing the scarcity of parts for that diesel. If it were me the 961 once running would go into retirement.
 
(quoted from post at 08:45:30 07/04/14) Kevin,

Drop me an email when you have a chance. My email is open in the Classic View of the forum.

Colin

Colin,
I'm feeling pretty internet-dumb at the moment, as I can't figure out how to email you from either classic or modern view (I usually use modern view). It's not showing as open.

But anyway, shoot me an email at krleppert atttt gmail dotttt com and we can talk.

Thanks,
Kevin
 
"Dealer support" for a 900? I'd be surprised if most dealers even knew what a 900 was. I would not rely on a dealer for any kind of support if I were working on something that old.
 
I'm a dealership guy, and even though Bern doesn't think any of us know anything about old Fords, even I know the 172 D crank isn't supposed to be cut .020 under. It won't live at that size.
 
(quoted from post at 12:04:25 07/04/14) I'm a dealership guy, and even though Bern doesn't think any of us know anything about old Fords, even I know the 172 D crank isn't supposed to be cut .020 under. It won't live at that size.

I as well as Bern, both know that there are many Ford dealer guys that like the old ones and know all about them. The problem is that Fiat and nearly all dealers have no interest in supporting them, so the issue of weather or not you have a good dealer nearby is no longer an issue. Ten years ago I would not have said that but it has changed a lot in ten years.
 
I disagree with the broad brush theory. Dealership presonnel can have experence and access to published info that tractor owners don't. That information can be used to source the proper parts and pieces in the aftermarket. I sell CNH parts as well as TISCO, A&I, Sparex, Atlantic, HyCapacity, Hershel and others. I have access to service bulletins going back to the sixties, as well as old parts marketing info that is used frequently here but not found in any of the current online resources. One such resource has recently worn out its fourth binder. Several pages of part descriptions of crankshaft driven hd pump couplers, shafts, and hubs come immediately to mind. And I'm not about to suggest it's OK to cut .020" of a 4 cylinder prior diesel crankshaft like one of our resident dealer bashers just did.
 
Rick - Dealer support isn't too bad, considering the massive dealer contractions of the past decade or so. I have two New Holland dealerships within 20 miles of me. Melrose and Sauk Centre. As a result, there is a good number of Fords, newer and older being used in this area. The big thing for me is finding a reputable shop that I can count on to do the work - I'd prefer working with someone who's been referred to me by someone I trust, such as the folks you mentioned in Urbank.

Colin
 
Hello Rick , Who said anything about Dealer bashing it is not in my post . It is obvious to me that you have had very little experience rebuilding 144,172 and 192 diesel engines if you did you would know that there is a .030 Tufftride coating on the Diesel Crankshaft and that is is a Forged steel unit besides . Every Junk crankshaft that I have turned to check the depth of the Tufftride coating has been a Minimum of .028 so yes .020 CAN BE SAFELY cut from the Crankshaft . I have been doing for years and done it 100's of times with no problems . Thanks Tony
 
(quoted from post at 13:13:58 07/04/14) Rick - Dealer support isn't too bad, considering the massive dealer contractions of the past decade or so. I have two New Holland dealerships within 20 miles of me. Melrose and Sauk Centre. As a result, there is a good number of Fords, newer and older being used in this area. The big thing for me is finding a reputable shop that I can count on to do the work - I'd prefer working with someone who's been referred to me by someone I trust, such as the folks you mentioned in Urbank.

Colin

OK Colin, I was talking about support of the Oliver someone suggested. AGCO support in both your and my area isn't great.

SIL is going to call a guy we know near Frazee that does good work and has a lot of Ford experience and see what he thinks.

Rick
 
Tony I was talking about the recommendation that he shop for an Oliver. I didn't say a thing about CIH/NH. Sorry there was a misunderstanding. I know the AGCO dealer that services both Colin's and my area well. They leave a lot to be desired. I knew he had good CIH/NH support within reasonable drive.

Rick
 
Hello Colin , The .020 is specific to the 144, 172, 192 engines only and it is a Max. spec. only. I prefer to stay at .010 if at all possible . Unless the shop or Mechanic has done 100's of these 55 year old engines the problems seen now were not there 30 years ago when wear , fatigue , and stress were not as big factors as now . Most all of the newer Diesel engines are way more heavy duty than these engines are but that has come from years of experience building them . Just look at the difference between the 172 Diesel and the 201 3 cylinder diesel almost ten years of experience building tractors yields a better stronger engine . The last 475hp KT 1150 Cummins and 6BT Cummins I have done did not need half the amount of work because they are so much more heavy duty and better built but they still wear out after a while . I order all parts per engine and use no kits with all of the Junk China parts , Pistons are the hardest parts to find made here in the USA . I can rebuild it for you but I am in Mass. back and forth here would probably be about $400/$500 in shipping alone unfortunately . Thanks Tony
 
Hello Jason , It was always the direction when they were in plentiful supply but as they get harder to find you have to change direction to repair . I have cut many junk crankshafts to measure the depth of the Tufftride coating to be sure of how far we can cut them . Just as we Sonic test Blocks for wall thickness if we are going to build a big bore engine because core shift can be a problem if you want to bore beyond the normal range . I have boxes of .001 .002 and .003 but what happens when you are at .008 ? and you are only suppose to have .0015 for clearance on the rods and mains . If it mags good with no cracks turn it .010 keep the tolerences tight and it will fine . I have them running in Farm tractors, pulling tractors, pavers and road graders, sweepers, generators all with no problems . Thanks Tony
 
Hello JD , The balancer is not that big of a deal actually(worn bearings on a balancer that is installed is a bigger problem than no balancer) , if these engines were properly balanced at the factory to begin with there would have been no need of the balancer kit . I just rebuilt a 172 Diesel that was in a 1958 861 that had almost 5000 hrs(a lot considering New England winters with a lot of starting fluid use) on it and it NEVER had a balancer installed in it , when we checked the weight of the pistons, rods and crank balance it was one of the closest to perfect engines I ever had a apart. That is why I balance EVERY ENGINE that I rebuild . Thanks Tony
 
Hello Colin , First thing as Rod said drain the oil and drop the oil pan and have a look, also see if you can turn the engine by putting the tractor in 5th gear and rocking it with the tires . Look for a broken crankshaft many times a broken crank will still allow the engine to turn. Next look for broken Connecting Rod bolts(very common also, more so than cranks)the rod will more than likely be disconnected from the crank hence the noise . Also look for a Conn. rod that will colored BLUE from heating up from the excessive clearance and lack of oil pressure and it will seized to the crank and probably broken on the large end . Then post back with your results . Thanks Tony
 
Hey Rick,

I did not imply that there are no NH dealers out there interested in supporting 1950's era tractors. I simply stated that it is my opinion that most do not. Either because the "statute of limitations" has expired on those old beasts, or else the old timers who knew anything about them are all gone. My local dealer refuses to even touch an SOS trans, for example. They are perfectly content to tell the customer "sorry" and make money some other way.

If I were still working at the dealership level as a service manager, I would be at that tipping point myself. So many times a part can no longer be had, or something else breaks because of old age, it's just not worth the hassle anymore. I gave up working on the old N series many years ago for that reason.

Now, if you still are strongly supportive of the hundred series tractors, then great, I'm sure your customers thank you for that. However, I'd bet if you polled most NH dealerships throughout the country and asked them if they could adjust the hydraulic lift cover for an 800, most would say no.

Also, I hope I'm not the resident "dealer basher" you were referring to in another post. I generally support NH dealerships, having worked for them myself for many years. I just don't like the NH parts pricing structure.
 

Bern, my closest NH dealer is fantastic and still has a large selection of older parts in inventory. But it's owned by 2 brothers who have had it many years. Then I've got Titan for my closest CIH dealer who can get me any parts that are still available. I was referring to the very poor dealer support from AGCO. We had a fantastic dealer. About 25 miles from Colin and 12 from me. The owners retired and sold out to another dealers looking to get bigger. It's so bad that the former parts manager is at another dealer and brings parts home with him at nights and meets people with what they need. The hard core AGCO guys around here are talking about switching over to CIH or JD, both about 25 miles away.

Rick
 
Sorry, Rick, didn't catch the part about picking up an Oliver. Great tractors, for sure. Completely right about there not being much in the way of Agco representation here. Plenty of New Holland and JD.

Colin
 
Great information, Tony. Thank you. I really appreciate it. And I will keep you in mind if I find nothing locally.

Colin
 
David,

My wife and I live 35 miles east of Alexandria and I farm with my folks 25 east of Alexandria.

Colin
 
Will do, Tony. I'll also take photos. I'm not sure when I will get to it as I'm in the middle of my farming season but I will keep you and the forum posted of my progress.

Thanks again for all of your help!
Colin
 
Thank you all for the help with my 961D. I really appreciate your assistance, ideas, and offers of parts and help locating parts.

My folks returned from their 36 hour 44th anniversary vacation and we were able to pull the tractor out of the cattle pasture this evening after chores.

Lots of really great ideas here. I have a number of leads for tracking down a local mechanic. Once the holiday weekend is over, I'll let my fingers do some walking. I'm on the western edge of the heart of Minnesota dairy country. There are a lot of small farms here and a lot of Fords. I am hopeful I can find a shop that does good work and is familiar with the older Fords.

Right now, I am leaning towards doing a full rebuild on the engine, but I also have several possible options for swapping an engine in.

Farming season and finances probably won't allow me to make much progress on this project until late fall, but I will be sure to keep everyone up to date on my progress and I will try to pull the pan and do a little investigating.

All the best and thank you again!
Happy Independence Day!
Colin, MN
 
I did a bunch of work at Sunopta Aseptic in Alexandria, spent a lot of time there. It is beautiful country.
 
Look on the bright side and maybe you will find that something bad happened inside the injector pump (banging sound) and the pump drive shaft sheared just like it's supposed to. A pump overhaul will be a lot less expensive than an engine overhaul.
My 861D has been running for years with about 10psi oil pressure at idle and 30-40 psi at operating rpm.
 
Colin,
I am pretty sure my pal Kenny has a crank for a 172. actually he has a complete 172 - in parts.
Also, we have had very good results from an old school engine rebuilder in Princeton MN. I can get you his number if you need it. He was even able to rebuild and get parts for a 144 for a 641D.
 
Colin, I talked to the guy near Frazee this morning. They are running about 2 months behind in work right now but they own and operate 5 or 6 901's and are very familiar with then. My SIL's friend, his dad and brother operate it and a farm. The dad is a long time very experienced Ford mechanic.

218 342 2429 is their shop number.

Rick
 
Jerry, if you would be willing to get me their number, that would be great! Princeton is only an hour and half east of me. Thank you.

Hope you're having a good weekend. Did you get any bad storms last night? No damage here, but lots of strong wind and heavy rain.

Colin
 
Rick, This is great. I'll call them on Monday. Thank you so much!

Did you get blown away last night? Ufda! The rain was timely here. We've been irrigating on our sandy soil already.

Colin
 
(quoted from post at 09:38:03 07/06/14) Rick, This is great. I'll call them on Monday. Thank you so much!

Did you get blown away last night? Ufda! The rain was timely here. We've been irrigating on our sandy soil already.

Colin

Yea we got it, not too bad though.

Rick
 
Hi Rick,

I dropped you an email early last week, but I'm guessing you didn't receive it. If you have a chance, email me at colin dot m dot king at gmail dot com

Thank you!
Colin
 

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