861 hydraulics, next logical step

Beanmedic · Apr 22, 2014

New to me 861 with lift work needed. Lift not working when I bought it. Has single spool accessory valve mounted on top of lift cover. No hoses...deadheaded.

UD pointed out that if the deadheaded valve didn't tax or stall the engine that the pump was not likely creating any pressure in the system. So, bled the pump. Now I do get some engine stall when actuating the accessory valve. But, still nothing when operating the quadrant in either position control or draft.

Some of the books are coming in and I do read archives. My question is: Is the next logical step to remove the inspection cover and look at linkages? That assuming the quadrant is linkage dependent and the accessory valve is not. Or would it be wise to plumb (don't know how yet) a gauge to a test port to check pressure?

cbrown9064 · Apr 23, 2014

Do you have the I&T FO-20 manual? There are troubleshooting steps in there that will walk you through each issue. At some point you may need a gauge to determine pressure.

Depending on the pump you have (piston or vane) there are two different ways to prime the pump. The vane style is on earlier models, but yours could have either. Is there an "adjustment" lever on the pump? If so, then it is a vane style.

Really need the manuals, it would be a lot of re typing here...

souNdguy · Apr 23, 2014

gauges are cheap and good to have anyway. HF has one that will work for you.

why not pressure test her so you can see either what the pump is making, or the relief is cracking at.. if it's making into at least the 3 digit range, heck. upper half of 2 digit range, it should lift an unloaded 3pt.

that all assumes you don't have a massive oil leak back of the cyl, or a stuck unloader dumping all oil anyway.

Beanmedic · Apr 23, 2014

It's a piston pump.

cbrown...Yep, FO-20 is on the way. I ALWAYS buy books. Guess I am just impatient.

SG...Had a similar thought. I have gauges. Just not sure where to plug in on the top cover. Particularly with the spool valve mounted on the accessory plate location.

Dean · Apr 23, 2014

Since deadheading the remote loads the engine, pressure is not the reason that your unloaded lift does raise.

Remove the inspection cover and see if the control(s) move the control valve. Inspect for internal leaks at the same time.

Post back.

Dean

Jimmyjack · Apr 23, 2014

I think that pump is capable of about 2000 pounts
pressure and the test port is on the side of the
housing, not the top cover.

Beanmedic · Apr 23, 2014

Thanks folks. Thought I had a gauge but don't. Hope to get that tomorrow and get past other chores to work on the tractor. I'll post what I find.

...and FO-20 finally arrived!!

souNdguy · Apr 24, 2014

with a aux valve.. just adapt the gauge to a QD and use the valve port!

as Dean said and I mentioned earlier. if it is making enough pressure to load the engine.. the lift should move with no weight on it. I imagine even 60 - 80 psi would move her un weighted

souNdguy · Apr 24, 2014

PLENTY of places you can test from on these machines. option top port is one of them. so is top plug on the pump too! hyd valves. since he has them.. etc.. etc..

Beanmedic · Apr 24, 2014

Well, didn't get started on the 861 until late. Chores again :roll:

Put the gauge on the pump. Bled pump while tractor running.

Got 1500 Lbs when actuating the deadheaded accessory valve. So, I'm guessing the pump is working, even if not optimal pressure. Got zero using the lift quadrant in draft or position control. So, pulled the plate on the left side. Hard to get in there to look. May need to pull the tire. Anyway, was losing my light, so I just used my phone and took a couple of shots. Oh...nothing moves below the lift cover when moving the lift control. Even I know enough to know that ain't right!

PO said he pulled the top cover and took all the top end to a tractor dealer and had it rebuilt. That was 6 years ago. But, the tractor hasn't been used much since

This is my first venture into lift repair. Just finished supper and have not cracked the books yet. But not sure the shaft is supposed to hit the small plate? That is the extent of my analysis (opinion) :lol:

Anyway, will get in the books tonight and see if I can note something out of order. If any of you see something, let me know.

PS: SoundGuy, can you email me? I have something I want to ask offline. [email protected]

JMOR · Apr 24, 2014

(quoted from post at 19:58:37 04/24/14)
Well, didn't get started on the 861 until late. Chores again :roll:

Put the gauge on the pump. Bled pump while tractor running.

Got 1500 Lbs when actuating the deadheaded accessory valve. So, I'm guessing the pump is working, even if not optimal pressure. Got zero using the lift quadrant in draft or position control. So, pulled the plate on the left side. Hard to get in there to look. May need to pull the tire. Anyway, was losing my light, so I just used my phone and took a couple of shots. Oh...nothing moves below the lift cover when moving the lift control. Even I know enough to know that ain't right!

PO said he pulled the top cover and took all the top end to a tractor dealer and had it rebuilt. That was 6 years ago. But, the tractor hasn't been used much since

This is my first venture into lift repair. Just finished supper and have not cracked the books yet. But not sure the shaft is supposed to hit the small plate? That is the extent of my analysis (opinion) :lol:

Anyway, will get in the books tonight and see if I can note something out of order. If any of you see something, let me know.

PS: SoundGuy, can you email me? I have something I want to ask offline. [email protected]

he position for the control shaft that you marked with arrow is the position calling for lift. One possible reason for remote dead head & making pressure & none (probably just very low) when trying to operate the three point is that the unloader must move to block the back pressure valve flow in order for pressure to rise & lift cylinder to see that pressure beyond the check valve. Unloader valves are notorious for sticking.

Beanmedic · Apr 24, 2014

I was just reading about the unloader valve. FO-20 calls for pulling and repositioning the accessory plate to pop the stuck valve loose. Not sure if I can do that with the accessory spool valve in place? Still reading...

Oh...would the stuck unloader valve prevent any of the linkage from moving when you operate the lift handle? I would have thought the linkages I am viewing would move.

JMOR · Apr 24, 2014

(quoted from post at 20:25:56 04/24/14) I was just reading about the unloader valve. FO-20 calls for pulling and repositioning the accessory plate to pop the stuck valve loose. Not sure if I can do that with the accessory spool valve in place? Still reading...

Oh...would the stuck unloader valve prevent any of the linkage from moving when you operate the lift handle? I would have thought the linkages I am viewing would move.

"Oh...would the stuck unloader valve prevent any of the linkage from moving when you operate the lift handle?" No, the unloader is only moved by fluid pressure, it has no mechanical connection to anything.

cbrown9064 · Apr 24, 2014

Maybe it is just my faulty memory from last summer, but something does not look right with that linkage. Like it is broken or something. That pic with the "pin" showing, it think that is supposed to be a pin in a hole on the linkage, not in the "half" like shown?

Might be headed to pull the lift cover. Easy, but heavy...

Beanmedic · Apr 24, 2014

Reading the shop manual it looks like a lift cover removal to use the accessory plate to test the pump pressure / valves. I have a chain hoist overhead in barn. Maybe I can rig something to help lift.

I'll post updates...and likely will have more questions.

JMOR · Apr 25, 2014

(quoted from post at 00:23:10 04/25/14) Reading the shop manual it looks like a lift cover removal to use the accessory plate to test the pump pressure / valves. I have a chain hoist overhead in barn. Maybe I can rig something to help lift.

I'll post updates...and likely will have more questions.

Not necessary to remove top cover to use accessory plate to test pump overpressure relief valve. You simply remove the accessory plate & re-install it with the accessory plate "section B" side bolted down over the "section A" side of top cover. This blocks the passage coming up from the pump.

Beanmedic · Apr 25, 2014

JMOR...thanks for that

The 1961 Ford Shop Manual says remove the top cover and then bolt down A, then B over the housing. I kept looking at the drawings and couldn't figure out why the top cover needed to be removed. The FO-20 just says remove the accessory plate and reposition as you indicated. I guess just different methodology.

It occured to me last night that I also can trade the pump off my 860's working lift to see if that makes a difference. I'll measure first, but bet it has a higher pump pressure.

Sean in PA · Apr 25, 2014

Yeah, I've seen places in the manuals where they use the term "top cover" when they really mean the accessory plate. If you look at the pictures that go with the text you can usually figure out which "top cover" they are really talking about.

Beanmedic · Apr 25, 2014

Good point. I looked again. The 1961 Ford Shop Manual says, in part: "Remove the lift cover assembly from the tractor. Remove the Accessory Plate, Part No. NCA-475-E, from the lift cover and install the portion shown at "A", Figure 40, on the center housing and over the pressure tube..." It goes on to mounting portion "B" thereafter.

[b:b91742d635]I like the newer version of the process better!![/b:b91742d635] I don't want to remove the top cover unless I need to do so. Got other stuff to repair and rewire.

Awaiting HVAC dudes now. We are supposed to reach 85 degrees in a couple of days and the AC is on the fritz. Learned awhile back that domestic tranquility is inversely proportional to indoor temperature of the home in the summer (at least in the hot South). Maybe after they are done I can turn some wrenches on the 861.

Beanmedic · Apr 25, 2014

Well, I guess it's pulling the top cover next to check the unloader valve.

Did the repositioning of the accessory plate and nothing of note. I had a poor seal anyway, so may repeat it tomorrow. I did remove the relief valve and clean up the metal slag on the side of it. Not much, but did polish it as suggested by the shop manual. Here is a pic of the accessory valve.

[b:5a58d77fd6]Is there supposed to be something engaging this pin?
[/b:5a58d77fd6]

My only other thought is that the 1500 Lbs pump pressure may not be enough. I can put a pump on it from an 860...but thinking pulling the top cover to check the unloader valve might be best.

[b:5a58d77fd6]Have the books, but any guru tricks for top cover removal?[/b:5a58d77fd6]

JMOR · Apr 25, 2014

(quoted from post at 18:57:39 04/25/14) Well, I guess it's pulling the top cover next to check the unloader valve.

Did the repositioning of the accessory plate and nothing of note. I had a poor seal anyway, so may repeat it tomorrow. I did remove the relief valve and clean up the metal slag on the side of it. Not much, but did polish it as suggested by the shop manual. Here is a pic of the accessory valve.

[b:1152df472e]Is there supposed to be something engaging this pin?
[/b:1152df472e]

My only other thought is that the 1500 Lbs pump pressure may not be enough. I can put a pump on it from an 860...but thinking pulling the top cover to check the unloader valve might be best.

[b:1152df472e]Have the books, but any guru tricks for top cover removal?[/b:1152df472e]

othing of note?? What does that mean? With acc plate repositioned, did you still have 1500? 1500 is plenty for lifting ~900 pounds! When the piston partially exits cylinder, it contacts that pin &moves linkage to stop further lift.

Beanmedic · Apr 25, 2014

Sorry...I guess that [b:80d63428ba]WAS[/b:80d63428ba] kind of vague.

Yes, I still had 1500lbs when actuating the accessory valve. I was getting some spray leaking from under the paper gasket I put in place, as instructed per the shop manual. Re-reading one of the two books I have, it is likely because I did not have an "O" ring in place in addition to the paper gasket.

I did have some oil "bubble up" around the relief valve. As I read it that was kind of the purpose of the accessory plate relocation test...in addition to checking pump pressure.

So if 1500 lbs is good enough, I'm back to thinking unloader valve.

Beanmedic · Apr 26, 2014

Again, not much time with tractor. But, got the lift cover off. Hoping I can get time to pull the unloader valve tomorrow. Here are some pics. Don't pay attention to the dogbone. I had the cylinder loose and let it slip out. Wasn't that way when bolted up.

861 hydraulics, next logical step

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