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Ford Tractors Discussion Forum
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Diesel Fuel Question

Author  [Modern View]
Ed Douglas

12-12-2013 15:46:45
50.122.177.61



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Hi All,

Maybe this is a dumb question.......how do you know...or can you know that the fuel you are getting has the winter additives.....Forgot to treat the remainder of my summer fuel....did I gel up....nothing 5 mins with the torpedo heater could not handle..but I was halfway to the drop off point for my bale.....got a lot of long cords!.....my brother in law....he is always mixing some kerosene with his winter fuel...additives be damned....thoughts???

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brucehopf

12-18-2013 09:24:02
24.114.56.137



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 Re: Diesel Fuel Question in reply to Ed Douglas, 12-12-2013 15:46:45  
I used to drive transport trucks, for a living. I did it, for over 13 years. Drove pretty well, all over North America. I had the Disspleasure, of gelling up, once. Didn't totally freeze up, but experienced lost power, in the engine. I managed to get into a truck stop, talked to the service department, and they introduced me, to Howes Diesel Fuel Conditioner. They told me, not to follow the directions, because of the different additives, in the fuel, from area, to area, and different climates. For the situation, that I was in, they recommended 1 jug, of Howes, per 150 gallon tank, of fuel (1 on each side, of the truck), and every second, fuel up, to put in half a jug, in each tank. After that, I went from weather extremes, from 75 degrees above, to minus 60, below, all withing, the same trip. Not once, after starting to use Howes, in that matter, I never had a problem, with gelling of the fuel. I use it all the time, in my tractors, and Diesel pickup truck, and I swear by it.

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jdemaris

12-14-2013 05:08:25
70.194.0.61



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 Re: Diesel Fuel Question in reply to Ed Douglas, 12-12-2013 15:46:45  
Kerosene used to work as an anti-gel before diesel fuel changed to low-sulfur. From the studies I've read it no longer works. It never worked to prevent ice crystals but did work as an anti-gel.

I've used the white-bottle Power Service for 20 years and have had zero problems. The price on it has gotten ridiculous though. Here in New York even our heating oil is now low-sulfur. I have outside tanks and never opt for the 50/50 mix offered for winter use. I use Power Service (white) in all my trucks, tractors, and in the heating oil. We've had temps down to 20 below F and other then a few plugged filters - all has been fine. I will admit though that when temps are below zero - I choose to use gas engines when possible. I've had more problems with my propane freezing up at the regulator - then with diesel. For that I have to use an ethanol injector.

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Bob in WY

12-13-2013 09:41:13
207.183.177.92



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 Re: Diesel Fuel Question in reply to Ed Douglas, 12-12-2013 15:46:45  
I buy offroad fuel "premixed 50/50 in the winter" and add in 1 oz per gal of ATF. This is for an early 70's 4400 Ford tractor. Plus I keep the water drained out of the separator and keep the tank full to reduce condensation.



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Patrick Potter

12-12-2013 18:21:23
68.116.159.234



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 Re: Diesel Fuel Question in reply to Ed Douglas, 12-12-2013 15:46:45  
Yes Ed, that does help and as far as a lot of smart and good people here, that to me is an understatement to say the least, I've learned a lot just browsing through the post, I've found some as far back as 2007 just by Google ling about a question I have and found a lot of helpful info that I wasn't even looking for, I'd be doing something with my tractor Ford 850 AKA Lazarus (it set for about 6 years then rose from the dead) I'd store it in the back of that file cabinet in my head and be working on something then the light comes on or Gibbs (NCIS) slaps me on the back on my head.

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Ed Douglas

12-12-2013 18:28:18
50.122.177.61



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 Re: Diesel Fuel Question in reply to Patrick Potter, 12-12-2013 18:21:23  
All true Pat......and just a real good group of guys....good people!!



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Patrick Potter

12-12-2013 18:07:41
68.116.159.234



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 Re: Diesel Fuel Question in reply to Ed Douglas, 12-12-2013 15:46:45  
Copy and paste link tells you where to get it in NY, it's readily available

http://www.powerservice.com/retail/state.asp?x=ny



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Larry NCKS

12-12-2013 17:50:36
70.198.0.150



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 Re: Diesel Fuel Question in reply to Ed Douglas, 12-12-2013 15:46:45  
Power Service should be available at any truck stop and at many auto parts stores.

Kerosene, fuel oil or #1 diesel fuel (which are all essentially the same product) should be mixed 1:1 with number 2 diesel if you choose to go that route. This actually would be my preference to any fuel additive.



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Patrick Potter

12-12-2013 17:46:54
68.116.159.234



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 Re: Diesel Fuel Question in reply to Ed Douglas, 12-12-2013 15:46:45  
I saw the question about diesel additive, my tractor is not a diesel but my truck is, I'm in Texas sth of Fort Worth and we don't normally have to bad of winters but we've already seen temps down in the teens and we haven't even gotten into our winter yet, do you mind enlightening me on what your talking about or is this something I need to be concerned about, '91 Ford 7.3 IDI non turbo.



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Ed Douglas

12-12-2013 18:05:23
50.122.177.61



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 Re: Diesel Fuel Question in reply to Patrick Potter, 12-12-2013 17:46:54  
Not at all Pat....the quick story.......when it starts getting cold....and certainly the teens would count....Diesel fuel can coagulate...or gel as it is commonly called......as you saw from the responses...some folks mix kerosene in with the fuel to suppress this.....others use additives.....Now my caveat....my experience is with Boeing 737s and tractors.....The 73 takes care of the issue by running the fuel through a fluid to fluid heat exchanger.......the hydraulic case return lines are routed thru the fuel tanks......doing two things.......heating the fuel.....cooling the hydraulic fluid....up above 37000....monitoring the tank temp is critical......now to Tractors....and maybe some of the smart guys can weigh in on your truck......additives suppress gelling....so does mixing in kerosene....I have never done he latter....and was asking for input.....a lot of experience on the forum.....I have been told that gas companies put in such additives in the winter months.....hope that helps

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Jerry/MT

12-12-2013 22:19:53
206.183.116.145



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 Re: Diesel Fuel Question in reply to Ed Douglas, 12-12-2013 18:05:23  
737"s also use Jet A (freezing point-40C) or Jet A-1 (freezing point -47C).



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Ed Douglas

12-12-2013 22:32:23
50.122.177.61



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 Re: Diesel Fuel Question in reply to Jerry/MT, 12-12-2013 22:19:53  
Yes Jerry.......that is true.....but then it is cold at altitude!....some times the only way to raise the fuel temp is to fly lower.....I am impressed you know the freezing point of both......bonus question.....Wide cut JP-4......and jP-8....not much of the latter around......and I haven't seen Jet B for quite a spell....



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Jerry/MT

12-14-2013 05:05:50
206.183.116.145



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 Re: Diesel Fuel Question in reply to Ed Douglas, 12-12-2013 22:32:23  
Hi Ed,
I waa a propulsion engineer for Boeing, retiring in 1999 as Chief Engineer-Propulsion Research & Prekininary design. As an aeronautical engineer right out of college, I worked on the design of the 737-100 and -200 and I was Propulsion Aerodynamics Manager on the 737 New Generation in 1993-1996. Fuels Systems was part of our Technology Group so I picked up some knowledge about them along the way.

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Ed Douglas

12-14-2013 08:01:44
50.122.178.35



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 Re: Diesel Fuel Question in reply to Jerry/MT, 12-14-2013 05:05:50  
Jerry that's outstanding....I guess you did! That is really quite impressive......I racked up quite a few hours on a lot of your engineering....I worked the panel on the 727, and flew that briefly as a first......The best airliner ever.....if they were still on property....I'd still be on it.......moved to the 100-200....loved that also....I am an old needle, ball and airspeed kind of a guy. I believe we had the distinction of having the first four 100s from Boeing...though they came from Lufthansa (though it may have been old Continental folklore)....maybe you can confirm.... on to the 300...500......We parked the 300 bout 2 years ago.....last 500... July if memory serves.....the fleet is all next Gen now with the Max on order...I actually divide my time between line flying and Simulator Check Airman......doing so much training right now that we have been using two remote facilities in Miami.....The old Pan Am building and your Alma Mater at Boeing.....it is quite a place.....sorry...this got long ......would like to tell you about an issue we are having to address with the ER and get your take on it......drop me a line if you get bored and have a minute!

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David G

12-12-2013 17:04:33
205.215.206.18



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 Re: Diesel Fuel Question in reply to Ed Douglas, 12-12-2013 15:46:45  
I do not trust that the fuel is conditioned, and add anytime the temp is less than 20.



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Ed Douglas

12-12-2013 17:33:05
50.122.177.61



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 Re: Diesel Fuel Question in reply to David G, 12-12-2013 17:04:33  
Thank you sir......might I trouble you for a ratio of kerosene to the diesel???



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Jerry/MT

12-14-2013 20:35:28
206.183.116.145



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 Re: Diesel Fuel Question in reply to Ed Douglas, 12-12-2013 17:33:05  
The times i have done it I used 2 parts # 2 diesel to one part #1 diesel. I talked to the fuel supplier and they blend it to CFPP of -15F and a CPP of -40F so I quit mixing it.



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John730D

12-12-2013 16:33:15
208.73.228.5



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 Re: Diesel Fuel Question in reply to Ed Douglas, 12-12-2013 15:46:45  
I use Power Service year round. Double up in the winter, and always start long before it gets cold. I never have a problem, and have been doing this for many years.



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Ed Douglas

12-12-2013 17:44:16
50.122.177.61



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 Re: Diesel Fuel Question in reply to John730D, 12-12-2013 16:33:15  
Thanks John.......I assume that Power Service is a brand of winter anti gel additive?.......Where do you procure it?



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soundguy

12-12-2013 17:39:10
207.30.46.70



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 Re: Diesel Fuel Question in reply to John730D, 12-12-2013 16:33:15  
ditto that...



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Ed Douglas

12-12-2013 17:46:23
50.122.177.61



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 Re: Diesel Fuel Question in reply to soundguy, 12-12-2013 17:39:10  
Where do you get it SG.......It is a brand?.......Can I get it in NY State??



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soundguy

12-12-2013 18:06:33
207.30.46.70



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 Re: Diesel Fuel Question in reply to Ed Douglas, 12-12-2013 17:46:23  
i usually use power service.. though in a pinch have used stp, carquest or napa store brand. howes brand or stanadyne too.. if I can find them.

power service is sold at walmart.. tsc, car quest, napa, orilies, autozone, advance auto.. etc...

there is white, silver and red bottle, plus white bottle biocide.

buy the type to fit your needs... etc.



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Ed Douglas

12-12-2013 18:20:43
50.122.177.61



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 Re: Diesel Fuel Question in reply to soundguy, 12-12-2013 18:06:33  
You guys are the best....taking care of the simple minded......
So......now the question becomes????

"to Power Service...or to mix with kerosene"....that is the question.........it is about 50/50 right now......does not diesel fuel have lubricants in it?....do we do ourselves any dirt by dilution?



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soundguy

12-13-2013 07:52:48
69.34.132.18



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 Re: Diesel Fuel Question in reply to Ed Douglas, 12-12-2013 18:20:43  
kerosene will not have the lubricity of good diesel. diesel today, IMHO.. does not have the lubricity it used to after the refining process to go to ULSD.

suposedly the makers treat for winter and lubricity... but never hurts to dose with some power service.

if you have already mixed kero and diesel 1 to 1, then you should be covered for most cold weather unless a white out snow in hits. will it hurt to add power service? no. might get you some cetane , and will add some lubricity..

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Ed Douglas

12-14-2013 08:11:31
50.122.178.35



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 Re: Diesel Fuel Question in reply to soundguy, 12-13-2013 07:52:48  
Thanks Soundguy......an excellent Primer!! I learned a few things



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