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Ford Tractors Discussion Forum
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Re: Ford NAA Voltage Regulator problems

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JMOR

07-28-2013 14:01:59
72.181.173.171



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Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeI asked that because of your apparent backwards reading ammeter. A 'B' vr on an 'A' gen would not charge. 18 to 22 volts across battery lead posts (not cable ends) does not sound right. Typically it takes some significant time of overcharging to raise battery voltage into that range. Could be a bad battery......can go that high with bad battery. If behavior has been same & battery staying charged for 2 years, why are you looking into the charging system??

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Tim Crawford

07-28-2013 15:33:32
65.30.176.104



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 Re: Ford NAA Voltage Regulator problems in reply to JMOR, 07-28-2013 14:01:59  
Well the battery was not staying charged. I would put a battery charger on it for several hours before I used it then it would start 5-6 times before I would have to re-charge it. I then thought that it was the VR because the ammeter never indicated that there was any charge coming from the generator. It did register a +4 when the key was turned on indicating that the ammeter was detecting a pull from the battery. When the tractor was started I would have thought the VR would be in control of the charge and show some sign that the charge being created by the generator was being regulated by the VR and was trickling into the battery. I assumed that there was something wrong with the original VR because when I put the 2 new ones on the ammeter went nuts indicating there was something different happening with the new VR. The idea that the ammeter is working the opposite of what it should does not bother me. I am concerned as to what is happening when the ammeter maxes out and the generator gets so hot that there is no way you can touch it with your hand. The 18 to 22 volts across battery posts did sound very high too but that was while the tractor was running and the ammeter going nuts. With the tractor shut off the battery measures 6.5 volts. Am I not correct in thinking that a VR is there to feed a charge as is needed for the battery and for a 6 volt system it would be in the 8-9 volt range. Based on the voltage readings this is working like I am running wires directly from the generator to the battery? If I fried the VR would it allow a charge that high to the battery or would it work the opposite and you would see no flow? I may be asking too many questions at one time here. Sorry for the rambling.

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Tim Crawford

07-28-2013 17:16:15
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 Re: Ford NAA Voltage Regulator problems in reply to Tim Crawford, 07-28-2013 15:33:32  
This is a lot of good stuff. I am going to have to take some time to digest it and see what I want to do. I noticed that based on my description of the spike in the ammeter that you have not suggested a reason for this behavior, leading me to believe that there is no one single reason for this type of behavior and correcting it is not a simple tweak. It puzzles me that I have put two new VR on the tractor and both reacted the same way the ammeter needle went off the chart. This would lead me to believe that the components that make up this circuit do not match and that there may be a mismatch between the VR and the generator. (A circuit generator vs B circuit VR) I really appreciate your help and the information you have provided. The tractor is on hunting property and won't be able to try any of this until I can get back there. The generator only gets very hot when the tractor is running, One final thing I did before leaving the hunting land was I disconnected the field wire on the generator and then ran the tractor. The ammeter then does not move(no spiking), the generator does not get hot, and the voltage across the battery post on the running tractor reads 9-10 volts. I am guessing that would mean the generator is creating a charge, but the VR is not functioning and closing the set of points(because I disconnected the field wire)that causes the ammeter to spike and overheat the generator. Thanks again for you thoughts.

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JMOR

07-28-2013 17:24:03
72.181.173.171



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 Re: Ford NAA Voltage Regulator problems in reply to Tim Crawford, 07-28-2013 17:16:15  
" I disconnected the field wire on the generator and then ran the tractor. The ammeter then does not move(no spiking), the generator does not get hot, and the voltage across the battery post on the running tractor reads 9-10 volts." Something wrong with that picture. With field wire disconnected, the gen should not output enough voltage to even begin to charge the battery, so where is this 9-10 volts coming from on a 3 cell 6volt battery?? Maybe you don't have a 6v battery or maybe you need to try another voltmeter?

To further elaborate on mis-match of "A" VR on "B" gen or "B" VR on "A" gen, in both cases, there will be no field current & no output.

I might look toward intermittent conditions for the kind of radical jumping ammeter readings that you report. Maybe wiring shorting or bad/loose/intermittent gen and/or VR grounds.
This post was edited by JMOR at 18:04:25 07/28/13.

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Tim Crawford

07-29-2013 05:33:52
208.100.40.50



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 Re: Ford NAA Voltage Regulator problems in reply to JMOR, 07-28-2013 17:24:03  
You stated "I might look toward intermittent conditions for the kind of radical jumping ammeter readings that you report. Maybe wiring shorting or bad/loose/intermittent gen and/or VR grounds."

This made reminded me that after i put the first VR on I did drive the tractor down a path in the woods, it was bumpy, when I would hit a bump the VR would in most cases jump to a different level, maybe from -30 to -20, then hit another bump it would jump back up. I even raced the engine while not moving ant the ammeter would go back to +1 for a time until it got jostled some more. Could this be that the field on the generator may be grounding against the generator housing and jostling it causes it to ground at vearious levels? Boy I wish I had access to the trator I would like to try some of these things.

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JMOR

07-28-2013 16:12:58
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 Re: Ford NAA Voltage Regulator problems in reply to Tim Crawford, 07-28-2013 15:33:32  
The VR does 3 things, 1)connects/disconnects battery to generator armature terminal when Armature voltage exceeds a preset value (high enough to charge a battery. This is so that it does not connect if so low that battery would discharge back into generator. 2)Senses voltage of battery and controls generator output by modulating field current, such as to apply only enough charge current to maintain a specified battery voltage. 3) senses generator current so as to not exceed the rated generator output & thus damage generator AND also senses a reverse current as when battery is discharging into the generator & disconnects gen to battery accordingly. SO, to answer your questions, a VR failure could result in keeping battery connected after shutdown of engine (cut out contacts fail to open/stuck closed) & this will discharge battery & heat generator in minutes. It might never connect batt to gen so all charging/discharging by generator does not exists...just as though you removed gen from tractor. If field contacts remain closed/stuck & never open regardless of voltage, then in time battery will overcharge, excess voltage & excess current will heat battery and generator, sometimes to destruction. If field contacts never close, then generator output will be very minimal to zero.

You can "temporarily" remove the VR from consideration & prove generator working, by placing a jumper wire on generator between ARM and FIELD terminals AND a second jumper wire between the gen ARM terminal and that side of ammeter which is not connected to the battery. Should see charging amperes as well as an increase in battery voltage. Be sure ti remove ARM to ammeter jumper when engine is turned off. Suit yourself as to whether or not you leave present wiring on generator ARM & FIELD terminals..if all is wired correctly it doesn't matter, but one more step toward removing more things from circuit would be to disconnect them.

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