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Ford Tractors Discussion Forum
Show Parts for Model:

Re: Ford 901 Select O Speed Mystery

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TONY JACOBS

05-15-2013 09:33:02
172.162.67.210



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Hello James , Not much of a mystery with the pressure tube breaking on a Diesel equipped S.O.S. tractor it is very common in fact . Harmonic vibration from the diesel engine causes the cracks even in the sheet metal . Best bet is to get a used one from a gas engine tractor . Your patch job with hose will not last long or may not even work . Ford made the pipe rigid for a reason , so the o-rings will seal . They are not designed to wobble loosely which is what they will do will with a flexible connection under pressure . It is pretty hard to re-engineer factory parts unless you have engineering experience or severe off road or racing experience which can break anything revealing the weak points . Since you do not understand what a spline surface does or you did not say that you do and hopefully you will only be using your tractor as a show tractor because the whole purpose behind the fine spline input shaft is WEAR SURFACE on each of the splines which is a lot more than a hex shaft will ever be , just like stripping a 6 POINT BOLT HEAD with a 6 POINT SOCKET because you only have 6 DRIVING POINTS . It is the reason why Ford changed over to FINE SPLINE INPUT and OUTPUT SHAFTS on the TRANS. the PINION GEAR and the AXLE SHAFTS between the 600/800 series tractors and the 601/801 series tractors in 1958 . It took THOUSANDS OF HOURS to wear off all of those splines on that HARDENED INPUT SHAFT a hex will wear faster regardless of how hard it is . It is the same reason why AIRCRAFT use 12 POINT NUTS and BOLTS rather than 6 POINT NUTS and BOLTS they have more surface area so they can be tighten properly without stripping the head or nut surface . Thanks Tony

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Jchampiii

05-15-2013 10:46:56
12.2.45.18



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 Re: Ford 901 Select O Speed Mystery in reply to TONY JACOBS, 05-15-2013 09:33:02  

TONY JACOBS said: (quoted from post at 09:33:02 05/15/13) Hello James , Not much of a mystery with the pressure tube breaking on a Diesel equipped S.O.S. tractor it is very common in fact . Harmonic vibration from the diesel engine causes the cracks even in the sheet metal . Best bet is to get a used one from a gas engine tractor . Your patch job with hose will not last long or may not even work . Ford made the pipe rigid for a reason , so the o-rings will seal . They are not designed to wobble loosely which is what they will do will with a flexible connection under pressure . It is pretty hard to re-engineer factory parts unless you have engineering experience or severe off road or racing experience which can break anything revealing the weak points . Since you do not understand what a spline surface does or you did not say that you do and hopefully you will only be using your tractor as a show tractor because the whole purpose behind the fine spline input shaft is WEAR SURFACE on each of the splines which is a lot more than a hex shaft will ever be , just like stripping a 6 POINT BOLT HEAD with a 6 POINT SOCKET because you only have 6 DRIVING POINTS . It is the reason why Ford changed over to FINE SPLINE INPUT and OUTPUT SHAFTS on the TRANS. the PINION GEAR and the AXLE SHAFTS between the 600/800 series tractors and the 601/801 series tractors in 1958 . It took THOUSANDS OF HOURS to wear off all of those splines on that HARDENED INPUT SHAFT a hex will wear faster regardless of how hard it is . It is the same reason why AIRCRAFT use 12 POINT NUTS and BOLTS rather than 6 POINT NUTS and BOLTS they have more surface area so they can be tighten properly without stripping the head or nut surface . Thanks Tony


Tony,

The reason it was a mystery was because when I posted this, we had no idea that that pipe was broken. The other mystery was the bearing race pieces we found in the bottom of the case and discovered no bad bearing.
On the topic of the tube … We have heard of others using hydraulic lines to repair their supply tube. They have reported it working so far. The pipe simply cracked in half. There are no parts missing. I think we are going to braze it and put
Now the tube, I agree that the rigidity of the tube keeps the pipe pressed into its position. We have heard of others using hydraulic lines to repair their supply tube. They have reported it working so far. The pipe simply cracked in half. There are no parts missing. I think we are going to braze or weld the pipe and place rubber hose on the outside as a failsafe and shock absorber. Maybe the hose on the outside will provide dampener and reduce vibration on the tube. Sort of like how people place rubber on a compound bow to stop vibration and reduce sound. The hydraulic hose placed on the tube should provide some of those benefits.

I completely understand the spline concept. The hex idea makes since to me as well. If you had a hardened bolt and a hardened wrench with no wiggle room like some of today’s wrenches allow there would be very little chance of it stripping unless you spun it off the top of the bolt. With the way John takes these worn input shafts and converts them to hex design with tolerances so tight it has no play what so ever. So what you're telling me is if you had a 6 pt socket and a 12 pt socket and you placed them both on a bolt or shaft that had very very tight tolerances the 6 pt. would strip out first? I beg to differ. I believe they would both provide that same results and the bolt head would break off before they stripped. Generally speaking, a 6-point socket gives the user less room for error. That is to say that due to the restrictive shape of the socket's interior. On the other hand, a 12-point socket more closely resembles a circle on the interior, the same goes with a fine splined shaft. With a 6pt you have much more metal to chew through rather than the thin individual splines. That's just how I see it, and I consider myself an intelligent individual. I am currently working towards my Bachelors of Science in Engineering Technology from Purdue.

Please read this... http://www.oldfordtractors.com/sosinput.htm

All rights go to John.

Thanks, John.

This tractor will not be a show tractor. It will be a lightly used tractor for mainly bush hogging, grading, and maintaining deer food plots. It will be used on occasion as in just weekends. This tractor will barley reach 50 hours a year, and that a high year! Anyways, I think we will be fine with Johns repair. He has done others and they all have good things to say!
This post was edited by Jchampiii at 10:49:28 05/15/13.

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TONY JACOBS

05-15-2013 18:12:47
172.162.219.146



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 Re: Ford 901 Select O Speed Mystery in reply to Jchampiii, 05-15-2013 10:46:56  
Hello James , You can do what ever you want with your tube but as I said before it will not work , it is a very common problem with Diesels it will just break again somewhere else if you were X-RAY your tube you will see it full of tiny cracks just like shattering tempered glass from the harmonic vibrations of the Diesel engine . I have 30 years more experience than you will ever have with these transmissions and my simple suggestion is just get one from a gas engine transmission and end the problem if you want to add the rubber hose to a new one go ahead . As far as spline concept you do not understand the difference in surface area just as John Smith has said in his post down below it is not made to be as strong because it is mechanically impossible . As far as the 6 point or 12 point sockets go I said no such thing you should learn to read first . You can strip a 6 point bolt head with a 6 point socket but it is much harder to strip a 12 point bolt head with a 12 point socket and that is why it used in the Aircraft industry , and WHY because it has more SURFACE AREA with 12 points rather one with 6 points , just like a fine spline shaft is stronger than a coarse spline and will wear longer because it has more SURFACE AREA , so regardless of your impending degree or my 30 year old degrees you need a lot more real world experience before you can re-engineer this transmission better than the original engineers did or think you know more about Aircraft fasteners when you have never turned a wrench on an Airplane . And yes , I know John Smith and have talked with him extensively , I like John Smith and John Smith does excellent high quality work and I am sure he explained the differences in splines to you also even though you failed to share the knowledge with other posters who do not know the difference , my explanation of splines and bolts has nothing to do with his work it was for your vague and misleading post . 50 hours a year is considered show tractor hours especially when these tractor were used to getting 10 to 12 hours day when new , I just put 50 hours on my 1962 841 in 4 days on a job almost totaling 7000 hours now and it only had 2900 hours when purchased in the 90's . So I also have few more years and thousands more hours of seat time(two of my tractors account for 9000 hours alone) on these tractors than you do and about 30 years more experience repairing these tractors and 27 years owning Elwood Engineering Co. (ELENCO) building and rebuilding and making parts for the Four Wheel Drive front end kits for these tractors . My advice is because I have been there and done that and have tried to do it as good as or better than the factory which is not easy or cheap . Thanks Tony

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John Smith8N

05-15-2013 16:39:50
99.74.20.15



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 Re: Ford 901 Select O Speed Mystery in reply to Jchampiii, 05-15-2013 10:46:56  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

I think Tony has misunderstood the purpose of the hex repair on the SOS input shafts. It was never intended to be better - or even as good as - the original design. It's not. It's simply a way to get new life from worn out parts. When your shaft and disk are worn out, your options are limited. You can find a good used shaft, but that's very difficult. After all these years, one that's only half worn out is about as good as you will find anywhere. The wear accelerates as they get loose, so the last half of the splines will disappear much faster than the first half. You can buy a new shaft from New Holland, IF they still have your model available. But the price of the some of the later DDC shafts will exceed the value of the tractor. You can have your old shaft welded up and re-cut to the original spline configuration and then buy a new original style disk. But, the knowledge of metallurgy and heat treat processes and welding necessary to do one correctly is available at very, very few machine shops. If they just build it up with weld and remachine the splines, they will have disturbed the steel to the point that the shaft will snap off right behind where they welded it. I've seen several previously repaired shafts snap off, and those that didn't break usually wore off the new splines in record time because they weren't hardened properly. If you can find someone who has the knowledge and facilities to repair the shaft properly, the cost would likely be up there with New Holland's prices for a new shaft.
By taking the minimum cut on the worn out shaft to get a .820" hex, you avoid the heat of welding and the integrity of the shaft won't be compromised. The shaft still has it's original hardness, and believe me it's hard. You'll eat up some carbide tooling getting it cut down to size. We've been doing this hex modification to the worn out SOS shafts for 9+ years. I don't know exactly how many, but I figure somewhere between 80 and 90 sets have been sent out. The number of people who have reported a failure during that time - ZERO. I don't know how long they will last. I just know that if any of those sets have worn out or broken, I haven't heard about it. It's going to take a long time before that hex wears enough to slip, and the these antique tractors are mostly hobby/chore tractors. They aren't used hard like they were back in the day when they were state of the art. There will always be those critics who know more than everyone else regardless of the topic. I put the process out there for anyone to use if they want to try it. If they don't like it, they don't have to use it. If they have a better idea, more power to them. This modification is just one option that's been PROVEN to work well.

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TONY JACOBS

05-15-2013 18:47:46
172.162.219.146



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 Re: Ford 901 Select O Speed Mystery in reply to John Smith8N, 05-15-2013 16:39:50  
Hello John , I was not going to respond to James post because I knew it would lead to this . I completely understand the purpose of your repair and I know the quality of your work and have spoke with guys that have used it and have been pleased with it and I know you explain the difference in strength , wear , price and availability(because they have told me) anything that any ones needs to know about your work because it works plain and simple the way it should . Just as you have said we may never know how long it will last because very few guys run their tractors the way they used to be run most only get 50 or so hours a year . If James post was not vague and misleading and or he posted what you told him I probably would not have said a word since I do not have the time to post regularly and if any ones thinks I have a problem with you or your work just tell them to call me(413-267-5087) because I do not have problems with you or your work . Thanks Tony

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