Ford 901 Select O Speed Mystery

Jchampiii

New User
We are in the middle of restoring a Ford 971. We have the entire SOS torn down and our input shaft is on its way back from John Smith. While going throught the SOS we found pieces of a bearing race in the bottom. While inspecting gears, thrust washers, clutches, shafts, valve unit ect... we have yet to find anything wrong. The previous owner said the tractor just locked up on him. Well it appears as though the SOS has been rebuilt fairly recent. The pieces of the bearing race we found were not from any bearing throught the tranny. So we came to the conclusion that someone rebuilt it and adjusted the bands incorrectly and gave up. Can we be this lucky? I hope so. There is very little wear shown, The worst was the input shaft as it was about half way worn down. Now we dont have to worry because we will have the hex rather than the spline thanks to John. The good thing was once those bearing races broke they fell straight down. There is no damage whatsoever on any gear sets.

Now is there any thing I should pay really close attention to that I havent already checked on?
 
that bearing race pic i sa was quite a bit of metal.

if you don't see anything obviously wrong.. it may be a leftover.

it won't be the first time i opened a sump and found parts left in from a previous repair.

scarry.. yes... sometimes ya get lucky though
 
We found the problem!! The previous owner claimed it locked up on him. Well we know why it locked up. The main supply oil tube had snapped and it lost all hydraulic power. No fluid to the valve assembly, no movement. Pto and 3pt will still work as they are just a pass through. So now we are on the hunt for a new one or a fix.

I read that some have welded it and others have clamped on hydraulic lines. We shall see.

If anyone has one or can point me towards one that would be great. Here is the part number for our ORC model. It is a 1960 901.

C0NN7B476E

I'll post a pic later..

:roll: [/img]
 
(quoted from post at 18:26:34 05/13/13) We found the problem!! The previous owner claimed it locked up on him. Well we know why it locked up. The main supply oil tube had snapped and it lost all hydraulic power. No fluid to the valve assembly, no movement. Pto and 3pt will still work as they are just a pass through. So now we are on the hunt for a new one or a fix.

Sorry, can't help on the tube. I can tell you, however, that if the transmission lost all hydraulic pressure your PTO will not work either. It depends on transmission pump and other components to make it run. You are correct that the 3 pt and other hydraulics pass through
 

You are correct. I forgot about the engaging and disabling the Pto. I'm used to the 8n where it's all mechanical. Haha I saw it was ran off the input shaft and for got about the clutch it has attached to it.
 
If you are close to Southern Ohio I have a 881 that I bought just for the motor, never tried to get it running, pulled the motor out for a 961
I will work something out with you for the trans
John
 
Well here is the culprit... Probably going to use hydrualic hose to repair so it can flex a little and not break.

17577.jpg
 
what diameter is the tube?

I have seen hyd rated compression adapter that use ferrules for steel line. have used them on ps setups with 100% results. seems a short piece of hose with those fittings would work if you have clearance. probably more elegant that welding on 2 fittings then using a piece of stubby hose.
 
(quoted from post at 07:14:36 05/14/13) what diameter is the tube?

I have seen hyd rated compression adapter that use ferrules for steel line. have used them on ps setups with 100% results. seems a short piece of hose with those fittings would work if you have clearance. probably more elegant that welding on 2 fittings then using a piece of stubby hose.

The OD of the pipe is 1/2 inch. I like the sound of the compression adapters. We were just going to use some stainless steel hose clamps. We don't want to weld because we like the idea of giving it a little bit of flex.
 
If you're within reach of northeastern PA, I'll give you an SOS out of '64 for scrap money. I'll keep the shifter and cables, but you can have everything else from the flywheel back.

Ray
 
i've personally used the 3/8 hyd compression fittings. i'm guessing 1/2 are available.

a buddy made me up some 8" hoses with orb fitting on one end and the comp fitting on the other.

worked good for a PS line replacement, unioning it with the existing hard line.
 


The back end of that pipe just has an o-ring where it slips into the control valve. The rigidity of the pipe is the only thing that holds it in there under full system pressure. If you go with a rubber hose patch, remember it has to be solid enough to hold the rear end of the tube in place. A little too much flex and it will just blow the fitting back out of the valve under pressure.
 
(quoted from post at 21:02:38 05/14/13)

The back end of that pipe just has an o-ring where it slips into the control valve. The rigidity of the pipe is the only thing that holds it in there under full system pressure. If you go with a rubber hose patch, remember it has to be solid enough to hold the rear end of the tube in place. A little too much flex and it will just blow the fitting back out of the valve under pressure.

(<-- father of the OP)

Yes, the break is so clean we figured that we would not trim the tube. that way any back pressure would be pipe-to-pipe.

I think we're going to go with the compression fittings with Hyd hose patch. I like the lateral flexibility that would introduce and keep a new ($150 O_O) pipe from breaking again.
 
Actually, upon more thought.. perhaps brazing it, in addition to a cover hose, sounds like a great long-term fix doesn't it?

Hmmm, off to ponder.




Now, about that infernal Roosa Master pump housing... (ugh)
 
Hello James , Not much of a mystery with the pressure tube breaking on a Diesel equipped S.O.S. tractor it is very common in fact . Harmonic vibration from the diesel engine causes the cracks even in the sheet metal . Best bet is to get a used one from a gas engine tractor . Your patch job with hose will not last long or may not even work . Ford made the pipe rigid for a reason , so the o-rings will seal . They are not designed to wobble loosely which is what they will do will with a flexible connection under pressure . It is pretty hard to re-engineer factory parts unless you have engineering experience or severe off road or racing experience which can break anything revealing the weak points . Since you do not understand what a spline surface does or you did not say that you do and hopefully you will only be using your tractor as a show tractor because the whole purpose behind the fine spline input shaft is WEAR SURFACE on each of the splines which is a lot more than a hex shaft will ever be , just like stripping a 6 POINT BOLT HEAD with a 6 POINT SOCKET because you only have 6 DRIVING POINTS . It is the reason why Ford changed over to FINE SPLINE INPUT and OUTPUT SHAFTS on the TRANS. the PINION GEAR and the AXLE SHAFTS between the 600/800 series tractors and the 601/801 series tractors in 1958 . It took THOUSANDS OF HOURS to wear off all of those splines on that HARDENED INPUT SHAFT a hex will wear faster regardless of how hard it is . It is the same reason why AIRCRAFT use 12 POINT NUTS and BOLTS rather than 6 POINT NUTS and BOLTS they have more surface area so they can be tighten properly without stripping the head or nut surface . Thanks Tony
 

I had an external hydraulic tube welded once by a friend who is pretty sharp at welding. It has lasted over ten years.
 
(quoted from post at 09:33:02 05/15/13) Hello James , Not much of a mystery with the pressure tube breaking on a Diesel equipped S.O.S. tractor it is very common in fact . Harmonic vibration from the diesel engine causes the cracks even in the sheet metal . Best bet is to get a used one from a gas engine tractor . Your patch job with hose will not last long or may not even work . Ford made the pipe rigid for a reason , so the o-rings will seal . They are not designed to wobble loosely which is what they will do will with a flexible connection under pressure . It is pretty hard to re-engineer factory parts unless you have engineering experience or severe off road or racing experience which can break anything revealing the weak points . Since you do not understand what a spline surface does or you did not say that you do and hopefully you will only be using your tractor as a show tractor because the whole purpose behind the fine spline input shaft is WEAR SURFACE on each of the splines which is a lot more than a hex shaft will ever be , just like stripping a 6 POINT BOLT HEAD with a 6 POINT SOCKET because you only have 6 DRIVING POINTS . It is the reason why Ford changed over to FINE SPLINE INPUT and OUTPUT SHAFTS on the TRANS. the PINION GEAR and the AXLE SHAFTS between the 600/800 series tractors and the 601/801 series tractors in 1958 . It took THOUSANDS OF HOURS to wear off all of those splines on that HARDENED INPUT SHAFT a hex will wear faster regardless of how hard it is . It is the same reason why AIRCRAFT use 12 POINT NUTS and BOLTS rather than 6 POINT NUTS and BOLTS they have more surface area so they can be tighten properly without stripping the head or nut surface . Thanks Tony

Tony,

The reason it was a mystery was because when I posted this, we had no idea that that pipe was broken. The other mystery was the bearing race pieces we found in the bottom of the case and discovered no bad bearing.

On the topic of the tube … We have heard of others using hydraulic lines to repair their supply tube. They have reported it working so far. The pipe simply cracked in half. There are no parts missing. I think we are going to braze it and put

Now the tube, I agree that the rigidity of the tube keeps the pipe pressed into its position. We have heard of others using hydraulic lines to repair their supply tube. They have reported it working so far. The pipe simply cracked in half. There are no parts missing. I think we are going to braze or weld the pipe and place rubber hose on the outside as a failsafe and shock absorber. Maybe the hose on the outside will provide dampener and reduce vibration on the tube. Sort of like how people place rubber on a compound bow to stop vibration and reduce sound. The hydraulic hose placed on the tube should provide some of those benefits.

I completely understand the spline concept. The hex idea makes since to me as well. If you had a hardened bolt and a hardened wrench with no wiggle room like some of today’s wrenches allow there would be very little chance of it stripping unless you spun it off the top of the bolt. With the way John takes these worn input shafts and converts them to hex design with tolerances so tight it has no play what so ever. So what you're telling me is if you had a 6 pt socket and a 12 pt socket and you placed them both on a bolt or shaft that had very very tight tolerances the 6 pt. would strip out first? I beg to differ. I believe they would both provide that same results and the bolt head would break off before they stripped. Generally speaking, a 6-point socket gives the user less room for error. That is to say that due to the restrictive shape of the socket's interior. On the other hand, a 12-point socket more closely resembles a circle on the interior, the same goes with a fine splined shaft. With a 6pt you have much more metal to chew through rather than the thin individual splines. That's just how I see it, and I consider myself an intelligent individual. I am currently working towards my Bachelors of Science in Engineering Technology from Purdue.

Please read this... http://www.oldfordtractors.com/sosinput.htm
All rights go to John.
Thanks, John.

This tractor will not be a show tractor. It will be a lightly used tractor for mainly bush hogging, grading, and maintaining deer food plots. It will be used on occasion as in just weekends. This tractor will barley reach 50 hours a year, and that a high year! Anyways, I think we will be fine with Johns repair. He has done others and they all have good things to say!
 
(quoted from post at 18:46:56 05/15/13)
(quoted from post at 09:33:02 05/15/13) Hello James , Not much of a mystery with the pressure tube breaking on a Diesel equipped S.O.S. tractor it is very common in fact . Harmonic vibration from the diesel engine causes the cracks even in the sheet metal . Best bet is to get a used one from a gas engine tractor . Your patch job with hose will not last long or may not even work . Ford made the pipe rigid for a reason , so the o-rings will seal . They are not designed to wobble loosely which is what they will do will with a flexible connection under pressure . It is pretty hard to re-engineer factory parts unless you have engineering experience or severe off road or racing experience which can break anything revealing the weak points . Since you do not understand what a spline surface does or you did not say that you do and hopefully you will only be using your tractor as a show tractor because the whole purpose behind the fine spline input shaft is WEAR SURFACE on each of the splines which is a lot more than a hex shaft will ever be , just like stripping a 6 POINT BOLT HEAD with a 6 POINT SOCKET because you only have 6 DRIVING POINTS . It is the reason why Ford changed over to FINE SPLINE INPUT and OUTPUT SHAFTS on the TRANS. the PINION GEAR and the AXLE SHAFTS between the 600/800 series tractors and the 601/801 series tractors in 1958 . It took THOUSANDS OF HOURS to wear off all of those splines on that HARDENED INPUT SHAFT a hex will wear faster regardless of how hard it is . It is the same reason why AIRCRAFT use 12 POINT NUTS and BOLTS rather than 6 POINT NUTS and BOLTS they have more surface area so they can be tighten properly without stripping the head or nut surface . Thanks Tony

Tony,

The reason it was a mystery was because when I posted this, we had no idea that that pipe was broken. The other mystery was the bearing race pieces we found in the bottom of the case and discovered no bad bearing.

On the topic of the tube … We have heard of others using hydraulic lines to repair their supply tube. They have reported it working so far. The pipe simply cracked in half. There are no parts missing. I think we are going to braze it and put

Now the tube, I agree that the rigidity of the tube keeps the pipe pressed into its position. We have heard of others using hydraulic lines to repair their supply tube. They have reported it working so far. The pipe simply cracked in half. There are no parts missing. I think we are going to braze or weld the pipe and place rubber hose on the outside as a failsafe and shock absorber. Maybe the hose on the outside will provide dampener and reduce vibration on the tube. Sort of like how people place rubber on a compound bow to stop vibration and reduce sound. The hydraulic hose placed on the tube should provide some of those benefits.

I completely understand the spline concept. The hex idea makes since to me as well. If you had a hardened bolt and a hardened wrench with no wiggle room like some of today’s wrenches allow there would be very little chance of it stripping unless you spun it off the top of the bolt. With the way John takes these worn input shafts and converts them to hex design with tolerances so tight it has no play what so ever. So what you're telling me is if you had a 6 pt socket and a 12 pt socket and you placed them both on a bolt or shaft that had very very tight tolerances the 6 pt. would strip out first? I beg to differ. I believe they would both provide that same results and the bolt head would break off before they stripped. Generally speaking, a 6-point socket gives the user less room for error. That is to say that due to the restrictive shape of the socket's interior. On the other hand, a 12-point socket more closely resembles a circle on the interior, the same goes with a fine splined shaft. With a 6pt you have much more metal to chew through rather than the thin individual splines. That's just how I see it, and I consider myself an intelligent individual. I am currently working towards my Bachelors of Science in Engineering Technology from Purdue.

Please read this... http://www.oldfordtractors.com/sosinput.htm
All rights go to John.
Thanks, John.

This tractor will not be a show tractor. It will be a lightly used tractor for mainly bush hogging, grading, and maintaining deer food plots. It will be used on occasion as in just weekends. This tractor will barley reach 50 hours a year, and that a high year! Anyways, I think we will be fine with Johns repair. He has done others and they all have good things to say!

I think Tony has misunderstood the purpose of the hex repair on the SOS input shafts. It was never intended to be better - or even as good as - the original design. It's not. It's simply a way to get new life from worn out parts. When your shaft and disk are worn out, your options are limited. You can find a good used shaft, but that's very difficult. After all these years, one that's only half worn out is about as good as you will find anywhere. The wear accelerates as they get loose, so the last half of the splines will disappear much faster than the first half. You can buy a new shaft from New Holland, IF they still have your model available. But the price of the some of the later DDC shafts will exceed the value of the tractor. You can have your old shaft welded up and re-cut to the original spline configuration and then buy a new original style disk. But, the knowledge of metallurgy and heat treat processes and welding necessary to do one correctly is available at very, very few machine shops. If they just build it up with weld and remachine the splines, they will have disturbed the steel to the point that the shaft will snap off right behind where they welded it. I've seen several previously repaired shafts snap off, and those that didn't break usually wore off the new splines in record time because they weren't hardened properly. If you can find someone who has the knowledge and facilities to repair the shaft properly, the cost would likely be up there with New Holland's prices for a new shaft.

By taking the minimum cut on the worn out shaft to get a .820" hex, you avoid the heat of welding and the integrity of the shaft won't be compromised. The shaft still has it's original hardness, and believe me it's hard. You'll eat up some carbide tooling getting it cut down to size.

We've been doing this hex modification to the worn out SOS shafts for 9+ years. I don't know exactly how many, but I figure somewhere between 80 and 90 sets have been sent out. The number of people who have reported a failure during that time - ZERO. I don't know how long they will last. I just know that if any of those sets have worn out or broken, I haven't heard about it. It's going to take a long time before that hex wears enough to slip, and the these antique tractors are mostly hobby/chore tractors. They aren't used hard like they were back in the day when they were state of the art.

There will always be those critics who know more than everyone else regardless of the topic. I put the process out there for anyone to use if they want to try it. If they don't like it, they don't have to use it. If they have a better idea, more power to them. This modification is just one option that's been PROVEN to work well.
 
Hello James , You can do what ever you want with your tube but as I said before it will not work , it is a very common problem with Diesels it will just break again somewhere else if you were X-RAY your tube you will see it full of tiny cracks just like shattering tempered glass from the harmonic vibrations of the Diesel engine . I have 30 years more experience than you will ever have with these transmissions and my simple suggestion is just get one from a gas engine transmission and end the problem if you want to add the rubber hose to a new one go ahead . As far as spline concept you do not understand the difference in surface area just as John Smith has said in his post down below it is not made to be as strong because it is mechanically impossible . As far as the 6 point or 12 point sockets go I said no such thing you should learn to read first . You can strip a 6 point bolt head with a 6 point socket but it is much harder to strip a 12 point bolt head with a 12 point socket and that is why it used in the Aircraft industry , and WHY because it has more SURFACE AREA with 12 points rather one with 6 points , just like a fine spline shaft is stronger than a coarse spline and will wear longer because it has more SURFACE AREA , so regardless of your impending degree or my 30 year old degrees you need a lot more real world experience before you can re-engineer this transmission better than the original engineers did or think you know more about Aircraft fasteners when you have never turned a wrench on an Airplane . And yes , I know John Smith and have talked with him extensively , I like John Smith and John Smith does excellent high quality work and I am sure he explained the differences in splines to you also even though you failed to share the knowledge with other posters who do not know the difference , my explanation of splines and bolts has nothing to do with his work it was for your vague and misleading post . 50 hours a year is considered show tractor hours especially when these tractor were used to getting 10 to 12 hours day when new , I just put 50 hours on my 1962 841 in 4 days on a job almost totaling 7000 hours now and it only had 2900 hours when purchased in the 90's . So I also have few more years and thousands more hours of seat time(two of my tractors account for 9000 hours alone) on these tractors than you do and about 30 years more experience repairing these tractors and 27 years owning Elwood Engineering Co. (ELENCO) building and rebuilding and making parts for the Four Wheel Drive front end kits for these tractors . My advice is because I have been there and done that and have tried to do it as good as or better than the factory which is not easy or cheap . Thanks Tony
 
Hello John , I was not going to respond to James post because I knew it would lead to this . I completely understand the purpose of your repair and I know the quality of your work and have spoke with guys that have used it and have been pleased with it and I know you explain the difference in strength , wear , price and availability(because they have told me) anything that any ones needs to know about your work because it works plain and simple the way it should . Just as you have said we may never know how long it will last because very few guys run their tractors the way they used to be run most only get 50 or so hours a year . If James post was not vague and misleading and or he posted what you told him I probably would not have said a word since I do not have the time to post regularly and if any ones thinks I have a problem with you or your work just tell them to call me(413-267-5087) because I do not have problems with you or your work . Thanks Tony
 
Tony,

This forum post was about the SOS and my questions regarding the SOS. I think I understand why you thought my post was "misleading and vague." My opening post simply stated that we now will have a good reliable shaft rather than using our old worn out one or finding another worn shaft for double what John charges. I never once said that the hex design was superior to the spline design. I was only stating that the newly milled shaft would provide excellent results and would perform fine with our use and that I can see it working years to come. I could buy a used spline shaft for 500 bucks with half its life gone or I could have John do his repair for half the price. If I have to replace it in 10 years then I won't be heartbroken.

50 hours a years is considered a show tractor, well then so be it, ours will be a “show tractor” Haha. Shall we get antique license plate due to low hours and special low insurance because of limited use? Sounds good to me!

I am not on here to start any fights, just simply to gain knowledge from experienced SOS tractor owners and mechanics. Your attitude set me off. I am sorry that I am a beginner in the SOS world, but we all have to start somewhere. I am going to consider some of the ideas you have put out there. I appreciate your thoughts and contributions. I don't want to make any enemy’s.

I don't want to get into a fight about what is better, 6pt vs. 12pt. I've heard the stories on both sides. The argument will go on for centuries to come. In my opinion, I prefer 6pt. over 12pt. 12 pt. may have more points of contact but 6pt actually has more contact surface (metal to metal). I can see advantages to both sides. What I have read and researched was that a huge advantage to 12pt is that they are easier to work with in tighter places. I'll leave it at that. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Thank you for your advice and wisdom with your 30 plus years of experience. Just talk to me like I actually know a thing or two about mechanics. I’d appreciate it. I’m only trying to learn about these machines. I just graduated from an 8N to the 901 Series and it has been a learning process. Haha

No Hard Feelings. :D
 
I prefer 6pt. over 12pt. 12 pt. may have more points of contact but 6pt actually has more contact surface (metal to metal).

Perfectly round has the most contact surface, but I don't think that a round nut and a round socket would be much good though. :roll:

Seriously though, no matter how tight the tolerances are between the socket and the nut, there has to be a small amount of gap in order for the socket to fit over the nut, and so the entire flat side does not make contact when you are turning the nut with the socket. The socket always cocks a small amount and you end up with only a small amount of metal-on-metal contact near the end of each flat, so the more of those flat sides you have (up to a point) the more metal-on-metal contact you actually end up with.
 
A round bolt is the worst bolt!!

Well I will always prefer a 6 point. I still believe it is harder to strip a 6pt verses a 12pt.
 
Hopefully the urine-soaked Wheaties are now dry and we can get back to the subject at hand.

I am curious, if one had the opportunity to build the "perfect" main supply tube (as Ford would have NEVER done) for this application, what material might be best?

Chromoly? 304 Stainless? Carbon fiber? Gold? Diamonds? (hehe),

Something else?
 
Hello Again James , If one had the opportunity to build the perfect main supply tube (AS FORD WOULD HAVE NEVER DONE)for this application . As quoted by you all the while you are FORGETTING THIS WAS DESIGNED IN 1959 (before you were born)(before carbon fiber was around) , 55 YEARS AGO , WHILE THE ENTIRE PRODUCTION RUN OF S.O.S's lasted until 1976 , MILLIONS OF TRANS. WERE BUILT and are STILL RUNNING TODAY . Built by a Family who put their NAME on their products of CARS , TRUCKS , TRACTORS building millions of units , cost effectively to sell to the average consumer , and you got the balls to complain that it only lasted for for 55 YEARS because they did not design it CORRECTLY , Why don't you show me something built TODAY that will last for 55 YEARS ? I bet you won't find anything that will . Go back to your 9N/2N/8N tractors that have been around 70 YEARS do you think that was accident and poor engineering too ? YEAH , AS FORD WOULD HAVE NEVER DONE ! I guess ignorance is bliss .
 
Hello Sean , That is an excellent example and explanation about the sockets , it made me think of a Video Snap-On used to show about their 6 Point and 12 Point sockets and wrenches explaining all of the force to loosen or tighten a bolt or a nut is right on the top edge of each flat regardless of which direction your are turning . I think later on Sears / Craftsman adopted a similar video too . Thanks Tony
 
Hello again James , 50 Hours a year is less than 1 hour per week , do you think the Farmer that bought that tractor BRAND NEW only used for 1 hour a week ? I doubt it . Plowing , Planting , Harvesting was done sun up to sun down until it was done day after day . As far as your research goes between 6 point and 12 point goes you had better look into Aircraft and Racing and maybe you will learn something , Go research AMERICAN RACING PRODUCTS or as it better known ARP and you will see the STRONGEST NUTS and BOLTS are of the 12 point design . When we build our 640 c.i.d Big Block Chevy Alky Pulling engines that produce between 1500 and 1700 horsepower and cost over $100,000 each you will NEVER FIND a 6 point bolt on the engine . Matter of fact go to MIKE MORAN's website and look up his new 4400 horsepower turboed Big Block Chevy Pro Stock engine you won't find a 6 point bolt in his shop either . When your 172 Diesel breaks a rod bolt or breaks a crank you will probably wish you read my posts about that too because ARP bolts have been saving those engines too . I am not going to fight with you either because I could care less if you do what I suggest my equipment and my customers equipment all run fine and they are quite happy my results . I am sure my attitude set you off because I am right and have done what I am telling you and none of it is an IDEA my suggestions are proven RESULTS wether you follow them or not is up to you . I would talk to you like you knew something about mechanics if you talked like you knew something about mechanics instead thinking you already know it all which with your lack of hands on experience you don't know much YET .
 

YOU, my friend, have a serious problem.

If you were as astute as you claim, you would have immediately recognized that it was NOT James that posted what you responded to. JCHAMP was the curious one and *I* happen to be damn near as old as the tractor in question thank you very much.

And as to your irrational screed, only a fool would believe that a manufacturer would intentionally design a vehicle to last 70 years. Luck, production numbers, parts availability, sheer determination and ingenuity of their customer base deserves much more of that credit in this context. I would love to expound on why but I'm afraid it might be over your head. I'll simply take you at face value and hope that your purported experience level will aid you. If you need a clue, another key part of the answer is, right there, in your very own post.

Relying on that may be a fools-bet on my part however, as though you claim to be of my age, it seems you soil threads, unprovoked, more like an angry 13yo. I don't expect to be surprised.
 
No I don't have any serious problems that I know of . Yes you are CORRECT I did not notice the ii's missing so my APOLOGIES go to James . If you were astute and as old as you claim you would know that there was A LOT MORE GOD D*** PRIDE IS THIS COUNTRY in what people did and said , manufacturers built , what reputation meant to people and business , than what goes on today . I never said that any manufacturer(even Ford although you should enlighten yourself and read about Henry Ford and see how much of his own money was spent and lost building tractors to help out the Farmer do his job easier) made product to last 70 years BUT they also did not computer engineer it so cheap as they do today just so that it will last long enough to get past a warranty period MAYBE without problems and or design EVERYTHING to be THROW AWAY ITEM as they do today and FORD DEFINATELY did not purposely design the S.O.S with inferior parts in 1959 , they did HOWEVER not test the trans. long enough to find the problems with it before it went into production . As far as ingenuity goes with S.O.S TRANSMISSIONS (and I speaking about nothing else in the world EXCEPT this transmission) goes MOST that are still running today are on original parts and do so from a HANDFUL of guys all over this country who have kept them running all these years . Production numbers , parts availability , sheer determination or course have all played a part in it also the only LUCK in this case is the owner finding a good mechanic who could work on these trans. Nothing is over my head and I do not care what you take at face value because this is not a politically correct kindergarden class to make everybody feel warm fuzzy and make sure nobody's feeling are hurt about how they are going to fix their tractors so there is no unprovoked soiled threads as you claim.
 
No I don't have any serious problems that I know of .
I don't know how you can say that with a straight face. You jump in this thread as an a**, you continued as an a** and when called on it, you remain an a** and idiotically rationalize it as some sort of butthurt PC response.

And if that weren't enough, you continually distort my statements to fit your bullsh*t narrative. Not once did I say that Ford engineers would design anything so cheap, back in the day, as to only last long enough to get past a warranty. Additionally, not once did I state that they purposely designed them with "inferior "parts. (Of note: You won't get an argument out of me as to as to whether products were made better back then, of course they were.)

What you seem utterly incapable of understanding, however, is exactly how design and manufacturing works on that scale. I'll dumb it down for you; Of course the engineers would prefer to create a work of art out of shiny, exotic materials that never wear out and send the ladies into a frenzy. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way in the real world as to do so would place it firmly out of the reach of its target audience. So what do they do? They find the best compromise between cost, durability and risk of course. (GM gas tanks, silver paint - FORD f'ing PINTO anyone?) The list is a mile long, and we end up with things that will, and should fail.

Inferior? Well, when compared to manna from heaven, yes. For real world applications? Not so much, as the longevity we've already established clearly illustrates.

THAT is why I stated that Ford would NEVER have produced a "tube made of diamonds" for these particular tractors and as such, I rightfully asked what material might have been the best to use - IF THE ENGINEERS WOULD HAVE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY.

And THAT is why discussions should absolutely be had to improve designs that we have the hind-sight to see need improvement. ESPECIALLY those failures that are relatively commonplace as opposed to believing that there can be no improvement. No one is 'complaining' here.

Nothing is over my head..
And clearly you were wrong.

Now you can continue to be an a**, or you could get off your high-horse, your choice.

Why not attempt to answer the question? Or leave it to someone better equipped to think outside your box.

Makes no difference to me, I simply wish to foster a discussion between level-headed folks.

And with that, I say good day to you sir.

.
 
I will as you say DUMB IT DOWN FOR YOU I answered the question in my FIRST POST . The pressure tube in a S.O.S. TRANS. cracks and breaks in a Diesel equipped tractor because of the Harmonic Vibrations created from the Diesel engine , especially ones that are not properly balanced to begin with , which these 172's and 192's and 144's are not and the reason why a Balancer kit was added as an afterthought . If you replace with a used one from a Gas engine trans. the problem is solved as I said in my first post so all of the ramblings of Mickey Mouse repairs and so called better materials are pure bulls**t because the tube was NEVER the problem the DIESEL ENGINE IS THE PROBLEM and if you bothered to read that I would not be wasting my time responding to you about absolutely nothing .
 
(quoted from post at 19:10:56 05/18/13)
No I don't have any serious problems that I know of .
I don't know how you can say that with a straight face. You jump in this thread as an a**, you continued as an a** and when called on it, you remain an a** and idiotically rationalize it as some sort of butthurt PC response.

And if that weren't enough, you continually distort my statements to fit your bullsh*t narrative. Not once did I say that Ford engineers would design anything so cheap, back in the day, as to only last long enough to get past a warranty. Additionally, not once did I state that they purposely designed them with "inferior "parts. (Of note: You won't get an argument out of me as to as to whether products were made better back then, of course they were.)

What you seem utterly incapable of understanding, however, is exactly how design and manufacturing works on that scale. I'll dumb it down for you; Of course the engineers would prefer to create a work of art out of shiny, exotic materials that never wear out and send the ladies into a frenzy. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way in the real world as to do so would place it firmly out of the reach of its target audience. So what do they do? They find the best compromise between cost, durability and risk of course. (GM gas tanks, silver paint - FORD f'ing PINTO anyone?) The list is a mile long, and we end up with things that will, and should fail.

Inferior? Well, when compared to manna from heaven, yes. For real world applications? Not so much, as the longevity we've already established clearly illustrates.

THAT is why I stated that Ford would NEVER have produced a "tube made of diamonds" for these particular tractors and as such, I rightfully asked what material might have been the best to use - IF THE ENGINEERS WOULD HAVE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY.

And THAT is why discussions should absolutely be had to improve designs that we have the hind-sight to see need improvement. ESPECIALLY those failures that are relatively commonplace as opposed to believing that there can be no improvement. No one is 'complaining' here.

Nothing is over my head..
And clearly you were wrong.

Now you can continue to be an a**, or you could get off your high-horse, your choice.

Why not attempt to answer the question? Or leave it to someone better equipped to think outside your box.

Makes no difference to me, I simply wish to foster a discussion between level-headed folks.

And with that, I say good day to you sir.

.

Tony certainly does not need my help, or anyone else's for that matter.
But this profanity laced response is so far off the originally posted topic
that it is not even tractor related.
I doubt anyone has pulled a plow with a Pinto.
I wish you good luck trying to get help from other forums.
 
(quoted from post at 19:09:25 05/18/13)Tony certainly does not need my help, or anyone else's for that matter.
But this profanity laced response is so far off the originally posted topic
that it is not even tractor related.
I doubt anyone has pulled a plow with a Pinto.
I wish you good luck trying to get help from other forums.
Thanks for your concern, but as a member of dozens of forums, I rarely have any problem receiving or providing help.

And although unprovoked arrogance / condescending attitudes do have a tendency to set me off, it usually ends with a mutual agreement on at least one point or another.

.
 
Fair enough but that still begs questions...

If you replace with a used one from a Gas engine trans. the problem is solved as I said in my first post
How exactly would that help? Would it not be subject to the same vibration damage as the diesel version, or was it made from different material? Or, would it too be considered a 'temporary' fix? (sans 'balancer')

..especially ones that are not properly balanced to begin with , which these 172's and 192's and 144's are not and the reason why a Balancer kit was added as an afterthought .
Huh. an improvement on a design, imagine that- though I can't find any solid information on this kit, specific to the 172cid Diesel/901 series that is.

Have any links?
 
(quoted from post at 10:30:30 05/19/13) Fair enough but that still begs questions...

If you replace with a used one from a Gas engine trans. the problem is solved as I said in my first post

How exactly would that help? Would it not be subject to the same vibration damage as the diesel version, or was it made from different material? Or, would it too be considered a 'temporary' fix? (sans 'balancer')

The original tube in your tractor lasted 50 years while being subjected to the vibrations from the diesel engine. The tube from a gasoline engine tractor would not have been subjected to 50 years of diesel vibrations, and so would probably last you 50 years before it wore out from being vibrated by your diesel engine. So yeah, it would only be a temporary fix.
 

I doubt that it lasted 50 years in our particular tractor. It looks as though this one has been re-built at least once. Too many pieces floating around with no damage other than the broken tube.

Given that and the failure rate on these tube, I wouldn't be surprised if they replaced that too at the time.

A position strengthened by the fact that there were no O-rings on either end of the tube as indicated in the manual. The other tubes have them.

We have a line on a gas tube, but until that becomes a reality, I'm still going with a weld+hyd hose sheath.
 
It will help because the gas engine does not create the harmonic vibrations that the diesel engine does . The vibrations come from the firing pulses in the engine the gas engine has about 7.1 compression ratio and the diesel has a 17.1 compression ratio so when it fires the force of the explosion in the cylinder in the diesel is much more violent than that of the gas which causes the vibration . As I said before if you were to x-ray or look at the tube under a microscope you see cracks that look like shattered tempered glass resulting in plain ole metal fatigue so by using the gas engine tube it is the closest thing to a NEW tube for less money . The balancer kit was added to almost every tractor with a Diesel engine in it . All 1958 and 1959 were add on kits starting in 1960 they were assembly line installed . If you pull the drain plug out of your tractor and it has a screen on it just like your 8N tractor it DOES NOT HAVE Balancer kit in the engine , if it has no screen on it you will be able to see the oil pump screen when you look in the hole in the oil pan and you will not be able to see anything else , the screen completely covers the opening for the drain plug .
 
I am sure your trans. has been apart before , and I would bet the tube has never been replaced they generally start breaking at about 4000 hours give or take a few hours it does take a while for the metal fatigue to happen , and since there was no o-rings on your tube the previous owner or someone he hired and why it was not fixed then is any ones guess had it apart sometime after it failed because it will not hold pressure without them .
 


I avoid diesels, so I know nothing about them. No doubt the vibration is hard on those pressure tubes and other components. But just to note, it's not limited to diesels only. I've been into several gas tractors with broken pressure tubes in the SOS and have sold used tubes to several people who have found broken ones in gas tractors. Might be a lot more common in diesels, but a gas engine isn't a guarantee of a good tube. Just sayin'.
 
(quoted from post at 11:30:20 05/20/13) It will help because the gas engine does not create the harmonic vibrations that the diesel engine does . The vibrations come from the firing pulses in the engine the gas engine has about 7.1 compression ratio and the diesel has a 17.1 compression ratio so when it fires the force of the explosion in the cylinder in the diesel is much more violent than that of the gas which causes the vibration . As I said before if you were to x-ray or look at the tube under a microscope you see cracks that look like shattered tempered glass resulting in plain ole metal fatigue so by using the gas engine tube it is the closest thing to a NEW tube for less money . The balancer kit was added to almost every tractor with a Diesel engine in it . All 1958 and 1959 were add on kits starting in 1960 they were assembly line installed . If you pull the drain plug out of your tractor and it has a screen on it just like your 8N tractor it DOES NOT HAVE Balancer kit in the engine , if it has no screen on it you will be able to see the oil pump screen when you look in the hole in the oil pan and you will not be able to see anything else , the screen completely covers the opening for the drain plug .

Tony,

Our tractor is a 1960 model and does not have a screen on the oil plug. The oil pick up covering the opening. So we do have the balancer kit on it. We are willing to take a chance with the welding and rubber hyd hose to act as a dampener. We are going to get a back up incase it does fail. The higher compression does make sense of why there is more vibrations. I am happy to hear that our engine has the balancer on it.

The SOS has been apart before. Hints the bearing pieces and no failed bearing. Anyways I believe they rebuilt the transmission and they put it back together without o-rings on the tube and then it failed shortly after and they gave up. There is not much wear on the tractor since the SOS was rebuilt. The only thing that looked bad was the input shaft. It was more than half way worn away. The rest of the tansmission, gear sets, bands and other componets virtually look either replaced or new.

Thank you for your help.

-JamesIII
 
Hello John , Yes you are absolutely correct also , because many of these tractors could have been originally diesels then converted to gas or just changed transmissions over the years or just possible a gas one did break the tube too , most guys would not know what they were originally or even care what they were or even bother to look they would have just wanted them fixed so they could get back to work . Thanks Tony
 

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