Just a Thought...861 Head Gasket

Tom Bond

Member
With the weather being so cold outside, should there be any consideration about remounting the head and torqueing it down with the parts so cold? I normally only turn on the heat in the garage when I'm out there so the block and head are really cold. Would it have any adverse affects on it after I get it together and start it up? All the parts are cleaned and just waiting to pick up the gasket set and thermostat at NAPA when they arrive. Only thing left before assembly is chase all the bolt hole threads to make sure they're clean.
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our hands are gonna worry more about the cold than the head and deck will.

slap it on. I can't say that I've ever paid attention to temps other than when painting when doing wrench turning.

just rememebr after torquing, that you need to fill rad and cooling system, then run it till warmed then retorque.. and would be a good time to double check valve settings.

me? on a issue witha head gasket? it's fill with clean water, warm up and test it like that till I was sure I had no leaks into crankcase. water in oil is bad.. coolant in oil will wipe out bearings..

if it is freezing in your area.. remamber to drain block and rad of the water, or add coolant after you test it, and then let it circulate to make sure you don't have a pocket of cold unmixed water trapped in a lower rad or block.

( IE i always test a engine assy with pure water not coolant .. just in case). DO rememebr to add coolant / or drain it if freezing though...
 
Excellent point souNdguy. Thank You! I'm hoping no damage was done to bearings. Motor ran no more than 10 mins at 1000 RPMs before I caught the coolant in oil. Oil pressure was still 35 psi when at idle and no unusual noises. If no leaks, I figure I'll drain water and refill with coolant, fresh oil and filter, run it a couple days and then another oil and filter change depending on what oil condition looks like.
 
Did you carefully clean the block and head surfaces? I use a razor blade and scrape the surfaces. If they are not completely clean you will have problems.
 
I haven't read all of the posts about the head gasket change you're working on so forgive me if this has already been discussed. At the risk of being insulting (which I definitely don't want to be) I was just wondering if you have a shop manual to refer to during re-assembly? Of course there is a correct bolt tightening sequence and torque, and other things like putting the push rods back in the original locations, etc. Just checking... :wink: -Will
 
Absolutely NOT insulting at all. I can't tell how much you've all helped with this change. All the little tricks and tips come from your experiences. Yes, I have the shop manual with all the specs and I'll follow them to the "T" when reassembling. Felpro gasket set came with push rod cover gasket also so I'm going to pull that cover tonight when I do my final cleaning and thread chasing before assembly. Won't hurt and I can see whats up inside there. Gasket set came with instructions that said, "Install head gasket in direction of markings, otherwise install gasket." So, only markings on my gasket, just some lines. Which side goes to block?
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I think if you lay the head gasket down on the deck surface on the block, and looking at the openings in the casting, it will only go on one way. Did you decide to use some copper coat on the gasket? I'm not recommending it, just curious. You seem like a very methodical and meticulous guy with your tractor work. That's good and the knowledgeable people here will give you sound advice as they have for me. I try, but a few times I have said the wrong thing and they always set me straight! (good thing!) -Will:
 
John, you called that one! Looks like the set I got from NAPA might be for another series even though it's listed for the 801, 172 gasser like mine. I might have an issue returning it as all Felpro products are marked non returnable if opened. But I think I have a legitimate beef if they're description is wrong. Steiner shows one with the appropriate water jacket port in the gasket. I'll have to order that set I guess. I also noticed my head is a remanufactured one. Part #310100. Doesn't look like an issue though. Does the distributor have to come out to remove the push rod cover? I tried to remove cover to clean it up under there and no luck but didn't want to force things this late in the game. If I have to pull it, is there any seal or "O" rings I need to get while I'm ordering the new head gasket set? Thanks Again!
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The only time I am concerned about the cold is when I'm building an engine and the parts aren't all the same temperature. Checking the fit of pistons/block requires they be at the same temperature.
 
(quoted from post at 04:12:58 01/26/13) Is that even the correct gasket?????????????????

That's a good catch :!: ,,, I have both the 7/16 and 1/2" head bolt styles rite in front of me ( Victor Reintz) Both have the rectangle hole....

3152 for 55 to 57 7/16" head bolts

5795 for 58 to 64 1/2" bolt holes

The 5795 has a steal ring around the rectangle port the other does not...
The firing ring is different on both I have never till now noticed the difference... I was under the impression the head bolt size was the only difference...

This is why I always check the old again the new
:wink: Tom what is the fel-pro #
 
OK let me think out loud here for a second and see if we can figure this out.

I went to the Fel Pro site and found they gave you what felpro has listed as the correct gasket 7761-B-1. You got set HS-7761-B-2. The picture shows the gasket you have and you can see the number stamped on your gasket picture.

So now we have to wonder is that a felpro mistake or do they know something we are over looking. If it is a mistake I wonder how many have used this gasket in the past and are now posting here about over heating problems.

So just to get a better idea of the problem I looked at the gasket for the 134 motor 7632-B

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and it looks more like what you need so at least felpro got it right. To bad the bore is differant and I do not know the details of that gasket or I MIGHT suggest using that gasket.
On the other hand if you look on this site or even the main Tisco parts site you will see that the 1/2 bolt gasket for the 134 and 172 is the same gasket. The gasket for the 7/16 is listed as a differant gasket for the 134 and 172 but that could be because Tisco sells a metal clad gasket for the 134 and a non-metallic gasket for the 172.
I wonder if contacting the felpro customer service and technical inquiries line at, 1-800-325-8886 would produce a answer to this problem.

Before I took anything else apart I would decide what path I was going to take. Most tractor sites sell a head gasket replacement set that only has the head gasket; valve cover; and manifold gasket. The next step up is a complete gasket set at more than twice the money. What you have is a head rebuild set. It is going to have some extra gaskets in it like the side cover. So if you go with another set you may not get a side cover gasket. But anyway that cover is just stuck on. They leak easy cause the cover gets bent so many gob it on with gasket sealer.

I do not know what path I would take. I would be very tempted to talk to felpro customer service and see if they would trade me the gasket for a 134 and try it.
 
Since the FelPro photos show a port opening for the 134 gasket and not for the 172 gasket, is there any chance this is actually a 134 motor? Tom, what casting # is on the right side of the engine block?

Also, take a close look at the shape of the combustion chamber in the head and compare it to the old and new gasket. The new gasket appears to be made for a larger chamber with a different shape. -Will
 
Also, I have a very cloudy recollection of a change in coolant flow in this series of engines, somewhere along the way & blocking those ports may have been the way it was done. Nine different head gaskets & some head numbers in this thread:
http://www.ytmag.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=ford&th=486779
 
Ok, NAPA took the gasket set back, no questions. Now, to figure out where to get a correct one. Steiner shows one for my 861 #FDS433 but also shows it's for 1/2" bolts. Mine are 7/16". They also show one #FDS430 for an 861 but doesn't list any bolt size. Looks like that might be the one but not sure. It's a whole kit but at this point I'd buy it if it were correct and just hang onto the extra pieces. My block casting # is EAF 6015 J and Serial # is 11513. Model stamp almost looked like an 881 but after I looked hard and close, I'm convinced it's an 861. Looks like it's a 1957, not a 1958 like I thought.
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Well, that does appear to be a '57 172 block,
according to John Smith's website info. Still, it
might be nice to measure one of the bores to be
sure. 134 is 3.44in and 172 is 3.90in. It might be
possible to put a 134 head on a 172 engine but I
don't know about that casting # shown on the head. -
Will
 
In archives:
If it"s the Fel-Pro gasket it does block some water jackets in the block, but that hasn"t been a problem for me with cooling or the gasket working.
See my earlier post for a link on different heads & 9 gaskets!
 
OK this is a very late Dec 1957 built tractor so engine would be a little before that. Can not see date code on motor from glare.

Now Ford/New Holland and even the aftermarket sites list a gasket break down like this.
Dec 1957 and before had one gasket for the 134 and a differant gasket for the 172. EAE6051D and EAF6051D.
Starting in Jan 1958 it changed. They list the same head gasket for 134 and 172 motors. Ford even list the 7/16 and 1/2 inch bolts as the same gasket. E9JL6051AA
This holds true as long as we talk gas motors. LPG Kero or Diesel would be differant.
This could be where Fel Pro is having problems because they are using the same gasket for the 57 and 58 motors. This may be the flow change JMOR spoke about.

So how does this help us with the Steiner gaskets. They list one for 1/2 bolts and say it is for either 134 or 172 motors. FDS433 for $70
Then they list another with no bolt size but it is for 172 motors only. That is going to be the 7/16 pre 1957 motors. FDS430 for $70
These are both head sets. The only complete set they show is FDS1325 $85 but it is for 1/2 bolts.

If you want to go Steiner then there you go. Or you may want to look at Tisco. This site and other Tisco dealers will have #VGFPN $44 that has a head; valve cover; manifold gasket or you could get the complete set of gaskets #FPN6008B $49 Both these sets are for 7/16 bolts.
 
You know, Tom, considering all this, I'm sorry I recommended the FelPro gasket set. If you had gone to Steiner in the first place, as you may have been ready to do, maybe you would have gotten the right one.
Nothing ever seems to be simple.... -Will
 
OK. So I called Steiner this morning and the fps430 kit is an either/or kit. If you have 7/16" bolts, it comes with bushings. Didn't want that. Tractor Parts Express VGFPM was $43 for head, manifold, and valve cover gaskets. For another $5, you get a full kit of gaskets including Carb, tstat, seals and more. Phone rep assured me head gasket was 7/16" bolt holes with fire rings. I ordered it. Hope to get this thing running by next Sunday. 2 day job has turned into 3 week job. But fun and learned a lot!
 
(quoted from post at 11:58:22 01/28/13) OK. So I called Steiner this morning and the fps430 kit is an either/or kit. If you have 7/16" bolts, it comes with bushings. Didn't want that. Tractor Parts Express VGFPM was $43 for head, manifold, and valve cover gaskets. For another $5, you get a full kit of gaskets including Carb, tstat, seals and more. Phone rep assured me head gasket was 7/16" bolt holes with fire rings. I ordered it. Hope to get this thing running by next Sunday. 2 day job has turned into 3 week job. But fun and learned a lot!
e sure & let us know about coolant holes in your new gasket when it arrives.
 

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