heating on flathead ford v8

heating problem as in it overheats?

what tstat you running? what radiator?

shroud?

pump int he v8 good and moving water?
 
(quoted from post at 13:59:25 10/01/12) I have installed a flathead ford v8 on a 8n tractor but I have a heating problem can anyone give me some help
versized radiator installed? Good fan & shroud? Maybe electric fan?
 
(quoted from post at 14:43:13 10/01/12) used ford 4 tube radiator with elec. fan
new water pumps. water moving fast in raditor
s that larger than N radiator? You know that the larger engine produces more heat. Retarded engine timing will put more heat into cooling system......might check static & advance mechanism(s).
 
Does it have a thermostat installed in it??? If not that could well be your problem due to the fact the coolant does not have time enough to cool before it goes back into the engine so yep it runs to hot
 
(quoted from post at 15:07:52 10/01/12) Does it have a thermostat installed in it??? If not that could well be your problem due to the fact the coolant does not have time enough to cool before it goes back into the engine so yep it runs to hot
orry, but you can not demonstrate that theory.
 
Old is correct. These flatheads with two water pumps need thermostats to prevent overheating, otherwise the water flow through the radiator is too fast.
 
(quoted from post at 15:33:27 10/01/12) Old is correct. These flatheads with two water pumps need thermostats to prevent overheating, otherwise the water flow through the radiator is too fast.
orry, but you can not demonstrate that theory, either.
 



It may be the thermostats make sure that EACH side gets the correct amount of LIMITED flow so that one side does not overwhelm or push back the other side. Would do no good to have one side running at 90 degrees and the other at 250 degrees due to unequal water flow.
 
put a thermostat on each side, or put a 1/2 inch washer in the hose where the thermostat is supposed to go , have to have some sort of restriction, or the water will move thru the radiator too fast and it can't cool. in a truck or car those v8s' need about 20 to 22 quarts to fill the system, if your radiator is too small it won't cool. Also if your timing is not right it will heat up.
Which engine do you have, 59AB oe an 8BA ?
you do not have a bad head gasket or cracked head or block do you?
Good luck.
 
I have proved that with a Model A FORD powering a cord wood saw.No thermostat boil over,install a thermostat boiling stops.
 
On a 59A a stuck vacuum brake will retard the timing.A worn brake piston will leak by and keep the timing retarded full time.
 
Well, you haven't proven it to me yet. I'm still calling it one of those "things I've always heard & believed". Like "set battery on earth or concrete & it will such the juice out of it" or "break a mirror, 7 years bad luck", or "cross the path of a black cat & have bad luck". I've spent hundreds of hours studying thermodynamics and heat transfer & paid the tuition for it & speeding up flow through a heat exchanger (radiator) increases , NOT decreases or even remain equal, the heat transfer until you reach astronomical velocities & you won't reach those velocities by removing the thermostat! To do a decent test, you will need to test, remove & test, replace & test. Beyond the technical, I have removed many thermostats & operated without until convenient to replace & never have I seen anything but lower temperatures without one. Never! Furthermore, if a little extra flow is going to result in overheat as you claim, explain these numbers: Ford N tractors@ 16gpm, NAA@19gpm, '55Chev@48gpm, ZR1 Corvette@85gpm, GMC 305ci/[email protected] you think removing the thermostat will result in overheating!!! I'll be waiting a long time to see you demonstrate that! It is bull!
 

Don't forget walking underneath a ladder.
I have never found an explanation, but I did have a '70 Ford van that would
overheat without a Thermostat.
It had the clutch pedal strapped to the floor since it now had an automatic
behind the 351 Windsor where the I-6 had been.
Pretty warm in the driver's seat too, since the doghouse wouldn't fit with the insulation in it! :)
 
(quoted from post at 22:16:30 10/01/12)
Don't forget walking underneath a ladder.
I have never found an explanation, but I did have a '70 Ford van that would
overheat without a Thermostat.
It had the clutch pedal strapped to the floor since it now had an automatic
behind the 351 Windsor where the I-6 had been.
Pretty warm in the driver's seat too, since the doghouse wouldn't fit with the insulation in it! :)
'll tell you the same thing I said before, until you have tested with, repeated without, and finally repeated with, you haven't really proven anything. A single change leaves too many other things that may influence your conclusion.....gotta have repeat, same results. If it was fine with a thermostat , then why did you take it out and make it overheat??? See what I mean. No disrespect Royce, but I just need real proof to go against a world of fact, science, physics, etc. Not to mention too many years of experience. Don't feel bad, I question everything/everybody.........that is how I have learned so much in 70 years!
How does it work & why? :wink:
 
(quoted from post at 22:26:15 10/01/12)
(quoted from post at 22:16:30 10/01/12)
Don't forget walking underneath a ladder.
I have never found an explanation, but I did have a '70 Ford van that would
overheat without a Thermostat.
It had the clutch pedal strapped to the floor since it now had an automatic
behind the 351 Windsor where the I-6 had been.
Pretty warm in the driver's seat too, since the doghouse wouldn't fit with the insulation in it! :)
'll tell you the same thing I said before, until you have tested with, repeated without, and finally repeated with, you haven't really proven anything. A single change leaves too many other things that may influence your conclusion.....gotta have repeat, same results. If it was fine with a thermostat , then why did you take it out and make it overheat??? See what I mean. No disrespect Royce, but I just need real proof to go against a world of fact, science, physics, etc. Not to mention too many years of experience. Don't feel bad, I question everything/everybody.........that is how I have learned so much in 70 years!
How does it work & why? :wink:

No offense taken! I respect your analytical skills and knowledge!
I actually did repeat it in that van.
I bought it as a hotrod when I was young.
I got the van cheap because it over heated.
In my "discovery", I found it didn't have a Tstat in it.
I put one in and it quit overheating.
I thought that seemed backwards so I took it out, and it overheated.
I put the same one back in, it didn't overheat.
I just left it in and it was good.
It was such a mutt I just chalked it up to that.
Like I said, I have no explanation.
Possibly V8 with V6 radiator?
I didn't have the tools back then to test anything properly.
I was in that "if it works its good" stage I guess.
BTW, I have never been able to reproduce that in another engine. :?
 
I've found in several instances, overheating occurs because the bottom hose sucks itself shut.. You need coil springs inside the hoses to prevent this. The fact that thermostats in the outlet hoses seem to help, is that they build up some backpressure, preventing the lower hoses from sucking shut. It probably indicates a pretty plugged up radiator core, which makes things worse.
 
(quoted from post at 23:18:09 10/01/12) I've found in several instances, overheating occurs because the bottom hose sucks itself shut.. You need coil springs inside the hoses to prevent this. The fact that thermostats in the outlet hoses seem to help, is that they build up some backpressure, preventing the lower hoses from sucking shut. It probably indicates a pretty plugged up radiator core, which makes things worse.
can see the "sucked hose shut" situation and very likely something such as this occurrence is what has mis-led folks to the wrong conclusion of "removing thermostat caused too fast flow through the radiator to be able to remove the heat". A cause- effect mis-association.
 
An excerpt from some tech info re coolant passing too quickly through a radiator.

http://www.stewartcomponents.com/tech_tips/Tech_Tips_3.htm

[color=blue:2350a42546]A common misconception is that if coolant flows too quickly through the system, that it will not have time to cool properly. However the cooling system is a closed loop, so if you are keeping the coolant in the radiator longer to allow it to cool, you are also allowing it to stay in the engine longer, which increases coolant temperatures. Coolant in the engine will actually boil away from critical heat areas within the cooling system if not forced through the cooling system at a sufficiently high velocity. This situation is a common cause of so-called "hot spots", which can lead to failures.

Years ago, cars used low pressure radiator caps with upright-style radiators. At high RPM, the water pump pressure would overcome the radiator cap's rating and force coolant out, resulting in an overheated engine. Many enthusiasts mistakenly believed that these situations were caused because the coolant was flowing through the radiator so quickly, that it did not have time to cool. Using restrictors or slowing water pump speed prevented the coolant from being forced out, and allowed the engine to run cooler. However, cars built in the past thirty years have used cross flow radiators that position the radiator cap on the low pressure (suction) side of the system. This type of system does not subject the radiator cap to pressure from the water pump, so it benefits from maximizing coolant flow, not restricting it.
[/color:2350a42546]
 
You say the radiator is "Ford 4 tube". Does that mean it is the original tractor radiator? If it is, the V-8 is creating more than two times the heat load (probably 4 times more heat because the exhaust gas runs through so much of the block casting) than the tractor engine, so even if the radiator is perfect it may not be enough to remove the available waste engine heat. Suggest you look closely at the fins and tubes to determine if the air fins are making good contact (metal-to-metal) with the tubes as this can be a problem.
 

What Coupe is not telling you is that on the day that it boiled over that it was 101 in the shade and he sawed 5 cord. After installing the T'stat it was 52 degrees and he sawed for ten minutes. I think that I remember something from junior high science about having controls and changing only one parameter at a time.
 
after checking for the combustion leak Hobo mentioned,
try some more custom work on your shroud.
tight clearances, only path for air thru the radiator.
and a very strong fan
especially important on something that doesn't go highway speeds
 
Heat transfer works on mass flow and velocity.

Let's assume that specific heat is 1 for both materials. You will need an equal mass of air and water moving to create the same delta T. The delta T will be proportional to to difference in flows. The velocity through the exchanger creates turbulence, much like stirring a pot with soup in it.

Too much water flow not working in a radiator is a wives tale. It does nothing but improve turbulence and mass flow.
 
This was in December.I talked with 3 men who ran Model A saw rigs.All said you had to put a thermostat in the top hose or boil. Dont try to alter what I said.I help Joe Ribero saw fire wood on his Model A saw rig in the early 60s.He had a thermostat in it.The Model A was known for overheating.I posted this in full many times but its a waste of time posting it for the smart As on here.Ive owned 8 flat head Fords.STILL HAVE THE FIRST I BOUGHT in the early 50s.The Ford V8 used big radiators that wont fit in an 8 N.Ford V8s needed 22 quart cooling systems While the Chevy 6 ran 15 quarts.Ford was 221 ci Chevy 216 ci.Ask stock car racers why they put restricting washers in the V8 heads.
 
Friends and I fixed a Model A Ford that boiled over.It never bothered in summer running woods roads.Stationary work sawing cordwood in december made it boil.A thermostat stopped the boiling.It had alcohol antifreeze in it, that lowered the boil point.I have sawed wood with 2 Model A powered saw rigs. a JD H and my Ford 640.Sawed alot of wood with a 2 hp electric motor and 2 gas engines.
 
You could prove the lack of cooling in the radiator with an infra red thermometer now.The Ford V8 is known to run hot.
 
(quoted from post at 23:18:09 10/01/12) I've found in several instances, overheating occurs because the bottom hose sucks itself shut.. You need coil springs inside the hoses to prevent this. The fact that thermostats in the outlet hoses seem to help, is that they build up some backpressure, preventing the lower hoses from sucking shut. It probably indicates a pretty plugged up radiator core, which makes things worse.

This may very well be the explanation for what I experienced.
It was quite a while ago, but I do not recall replacing the lower radiator hose.
 
(quoted from post at 01:31:19 10/03/12)
(quoted from post at 23:18:09 10/01/12) I've found in several instances, overheating occurs because the bottom hose sucks itself shut.. You need coil springs inside the hoses to prevent this. The fact that thermostats in the outlet hoses seem to help, is that they build up some backpressure, preventing the lower hoses from sucking shut. It probably indicates a pretty plugged up radiator core, which makes things worse.

This may very well be the explanation for what I experienced.
It was quite a while ago, but I do not recall replacing the lower radiator hose.

I have seen several fitzall unversial flex hose were the interior liner of the hose separated restricting flow the spring was of little help other than to mask the issue...
 
The lower hose on the 32 to 39 V8 was just 5 inches long so it couldnt suck shut.Real fun to replace too.
 
Bring # 1 piston up on compression.right front.Put a chalk mark on crank pulley.Hook up a timing light and see if timing is advancing.If you have an 8ba block the vacuum for the distributor has to come from a tap on the carburator.Be aware that the V8 can bust up the transmission and differential.
 
(quoted from post at 18:29:18 10/01/12) I have proved that with a Model A FORD powering a cord wood saw.No thermostat boil over,install a thermostat boiling stops.

Coupe , I had 2 model A's and neither had a thermostadt. I absolutely beat the tar out of both and the only way they would overheat was when they were low on water. As delivered from Ford they didn't have 'stadts.
 
(quoted from post at 18:49:30 10/01/12) Well, you haven't proven it to me yet. I'm still calling it one of those "things I've always heard & believed". Like "set battery on earth or concrete & it will such the juice out of it" or "break a mirror, 7 years bad luck", or "cross the path of a black cat & have bad luck". I've spent hundreds of hours studying thermodynamics and heat transfer & paid the tuition for it & speeding up flow through a heat exchanger (radiator) increases , NOT decreases or even remain equal, the heat transfer until you reach astronomical velocities & you won't reach those velocities by removing the thermostat! To do a decent test, you will need to test, remove & test, replace & test. Beyond the technical, I have removed many thermostats & operated without until convenient to replace & never have I seen anything but lower temperatures without one. Never! Furthermore, if a little extra flow is going to result in overheat as you claim, explain these numbers: Ford N tractors@ 16gpm, NAA@19gpm, '55Chev@48gpm, ZR1 Corvette@85gpm, GMC 305ci/[email protected] you think removing the thermostat will result in overheating!!! I'll be waiting a long time to see you demonstrate that! It is bull!

JMOR, All I can say is "THANK YOU"!
 
(quoted from post at 13:01:47 10/03/12)
(quoted from post at 18:49:30 10/01/12) Well, you haven't proven it to me yet. I'm still calling it one of those "things I've always heard & believed". Like "set battery on earth or concrete & it will such the juice out of it" or "break a mirror, 7 years bad luck", or "cross the path of a black cat & have bad luck". I've spent hundreds of hours studying thermodynamics and heat transfer & paid the tuition for it & speeding up flow through a heat exchanger (radiator) increases , NOT decreases or even remain equal, the heat transfer until you reach astronomical velocities & you won't reach those velocities by removing the thermostat! To do a decent test, you will need to test, remove & test, replace & test. Beyond the technical, I have removed many thermostats & operated without until convenient to replace & never have I seen anything but lower temperatures without one. Never! Furthermore, if a little extra flow is going to result in overheat as you claim, explain these numbers: Ford N tractors@ 16gpm, NAA@19gpm, '55Chev@48gpm, ZR1 Corvette@85gpm, GMC 305ci/[email protected] you think removing the thermostat will result in overheating!!! I'll be waiting a long time to see you demonstrate that! It is bull!

JMOR, All I can say is "THANK YOU"!
yth killing is very difficult. Some things have been repeated for so long that they become almost like fact, except no substance to back them up. For those without a completely closed mind, permanently set in concrete, facts will always rule the day.
 

Some F/H Ford V8 engines tended to run warm.No where near all did.I owned two and never managed to overheat either. Believe me I tried. My father owned many starting in 1932.He always said when they were new and run hard Temp. would climb.Let off the throttle,Temp.drops, back on the gas and keep going.NYSP had hundreds of them from 1932 until 1953( my father retired from them with 39 years).They didn't have a hi-temp. problem either.
 
I know they didnt have thermostats.I had an A for 15 years.Joe Ribero thought that stationary use made them heat.Lack of air flow.The Model A had a thermosyphon system with waterpump assist.
 
Dont care how much you studied,We were there and saw the boiling stop.Have you ever owned a Model A or Ford Flathead V8 ? Have you ever sawed wood with a Model A Ford saw rig?A friends father ran a sawmill with a Model A Ford engine.He bought a tractor to power the mill and gave me the A engine.It had a thermostat in it.Anyone who has a Model A Ford engine could run the test with an infra red thermometer or even a meat thermometer.Two of the friends who saw the boiling stop have restored Model A Fords.I live 250 miles away from them now.Here are the names of the men who I talked with about using a thermostat in Ford saw rigs.Joe Ribero ,Francis Landry.Richard Phelan,Harold King.All have passed on.The 32 to 36 Ford V8s used in hose thermostats.I put one in my Model A.I have demonstrated that a thermostat did stop the boiling,You have NOT. the
 

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