Author	[Modern View]
ohjeffoh 08-08-2012 06:25:58 198.30.81.2 Report to Moderator	I searched till I'm blue in the face but can't find the answer or is the answer to get a different manual, I'm using an IT manual. The problem started 3 yrs ago when it wouldn't pull anymore in direct or DP, took pressure readings then and was getting 90/95 psi. Took the DP out of the loop (dead head to the guage) and got 150/155 the very low side of acceptable with DP in the loop. At that time I replaced everything in the DP (seals and clutch packs) and new after market hyd pump. this did not change pressure readings but I could now use the tractor and it didn't seem to slip. I removed the rearend cover to get to the pressure regulator and shimmed the pressure spring. I also rebuilt the pto clutch pack while I was in there. All this had little to no affect on pressure readings still at min. or slightly below. Next I changed the hyd valve with solenoid new from NH. this did not change the pressure at all, it did make the delay longer between shifts so I put the old one back on. I gave up trying to get the pressures up and got by until now, basicly same thing 3 yrs later. This time I shimmed the regulator more and got the pressure above 190 when dead headed to the guage but loses 65 psi when DP is in the loop. I reassembled DP on the work bench and put air pressure to the clutch pack ports one pack leaks nothing and the other leaks very little, I'm thinking it's flowing too much oil to the lube ports causing the pressure drop. I'm open to suggestions, I'm considering making a restrictor to put in the lube port hole. [Reply]   [No Email]
Sean in PA 08-08-2012 12:09:03 71.224.102.32 Report to Moderator	Re: Dual power 6610 giving me gray hair in reply to TONY JACOBS, 08-08-2012 06:25:58   ohjeffoh said: (quoted from post at 14:01:30 08/08/12) The IT manual says put the guage in at the pump fitting but I didn't do this I installed it at the valve at the DP seems like that would make more sense. Wow, you hook the gauge up somewhere other than where the manual says that you should and you get different pressure readings than the manual says you should. Even if I thought I was smarter than the folks that wrote manual, if I got unexpected readings in the other location, I would go back and hook it up where the manual says just to make sure. This post was edited by Sean in PA at 12:09:41 08/08/12.   [Reply]  [No Email]
ohjeffoh 08-08-2012 10:36:57 198.30.81.2 Report to Moderator	Re: Dual power 6610 giving me gray hair in reply to ohjeffoh, 08-08-2012 06:25:58   If the photo links work I'll try to explain 1 & 2 is a direct passage into an open cavity, these two have me a little puzzled. I believe this is where it's flowing too much and reducing my pressure. these passages do not flow oil from the lube circuit coming from the oil cooler it looks to me like the oil comes from the spool valve which is taking from the high pressure line. 3 is where lube oil flows from oil cooler, looks like it flows directly through the valve into the DP and is in no way controlled by the valve. 4 this flows oil to the clutch pack inside the carrier through the ringed groove. When I apply air pressure to this port and hold it, it does leak down in about 2 sec. 5 this flows oil to the larger piston and when I apply air to this and hold it does not leak off at all.   [Reply]  [No Email]
RodInNS 08-08-2012 12:58:49 216.118.158.123 Report to Moderator	Re: Dual power 6610 giving me gray hair in reply to ohjeffoh, 08-08-2012 10:36:57   Have you checked the screen at the inlet to the DP control valve where supply oil enters? 1 & 2 as pictured are likely the exhaust ports for each clutch pack. When the control valve shifts from high to low or vice versa... the trapped oil needs an escape route. Quickly. Those would no doubt dump into the mechanics of the clutch unrestricted. I would be somewhat concerned about the leakoff you have on the direct clutch. I don't know how you're accurately testing that on a bench tho... I think I'd do a thorough visual of the sealing ring surfaces again. Make sure the rings turn freely in their lands and that the lands aren't cut/scored badly from lack of lube in the past. Likewise make sure there's no groove in the main housing where the sealing rings ride... Beyond that it's basically just the rubber seals on the clutch pistons. There's a touch to installing them so that they don't pinch or roll when you install the pistons... Likewise there's a knack to getting the direct clutch and carrier in place without busting the sealing rings. I know I busted one or two the first time I tried... and was lucky I had extra's. I'd also make a point of installing the test gauge in the manifold port on the pump... but I can't see it making any difference where exactly it is placed unless you've got obstructions in fittings that are causing the pressure loss. You just have to keep following it out logically. If it's not making pressure it's either got a leak or the pump is not supplying enough oil. Rod   [Reply]  [No Email]
showcrop 08-08-2012 18:45:23 75.67.231.80 Report to Moderator	Re: Dual power 6610 giving me gray hair in reply to RodInNS, 08-08-2012 12:58:49   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see Those sealing rings on the back of the direct housing of mine were originally cast iron running in a steel sleeve. When I rebuilt it about 10 years ago the new rings were plastic. Two years ago I had it apart again to do some work on the tranny and I noticed some pretty good grooves where those plastic rings ride because being plastic they pick up particles which can be abrasive. This is something worth taking a good look at.   [Reply]  [No Email]
Bern 08-08-2012 15:27:21 66.218.203.63 Report to Moderator	Re: Dual power 6610 giving me gray hair in reply to RodInNS, 08-08-2012 12:58:49   Rod, I have found that packing the grooves with Vaseline first helps greatly with not damaging the seal rings in the direct drive clutch while installing it. Never had a problem doing it this way. Also, the original poster needs to check the bore of the housing very closely for any wear in this area. A pressure test of this clutch using air is going to be pretty inconclusive. The underdrive piston, however, should not leak at all using air.   [Reply]  [No Email]
ohjeffoh 08-09-2012 08:17:03 198.30.81.2 Report to Moderator	Re: Dual power 6610 giving me gray hair in reply to Bern, 08-08-2012 15:27:21   I didn't find the culprit yet, the sealing ring surface does have some grooves, if I decide to do something about it what are my options? the reason I say if is because the pressure on under drive is low too so I don't think that is the real problem. I bolted the valve to the DP case and applied air to the input port, the under drive piston applied and it leaked air from port 1 & 2 significantly more from port 2. I then applied 12v to the solenoid and the direct drive pack applied and it leaked air from ports 1 & 2 again but this time mostly from port 1. I think I failed to mention about a yr ago the solenoid failed on the valve so I was forced to use the valve I bought for the first rebuild 2 yrs prior and didn't use it because of the longer delay when switching. I called the dealer to be sure I got the right valve for this tractor and they assured me it is.   [Reply]  [No Email]
Bern 08-09-2012 21:13:39 66.218.203.189 Report to Moderator	Re: Dual power 6610 giving me gray hair in reply to ohjeffoh, 08-09-2012 08:17:03   Your problem might well be in the control valve, but I seem to recall you saying in your first post that you have already tried a different one with the same results. I'd have to say, based on what I am reading here, that I am stumped. I have worked on literally dozens of these tractors, and have never had that kind of an issue with the control valve, or for that matter the entire DP itself. Overall, it is very reliable with the exception of the solenoid. Those do fail from time to time. If you feel that the bore in the housing needs attention, you can buy a sleeve to repair it with. This would require having your housing bored to accept said sleeve. If you look in the parts catalog for the x600 series tractors with DP, you'll find it.   [Reply]  [No Email]
ohjeffoh 08-10-2012 06:13:30 198.30.81.2 Report to Moderator	Re: Dual power 6610 giving me gray hair in reply to Bern, 08-09-2012 21:13:39   I'm probably jumping to the control valve because I'm running out of options, three yrs ago I did buy the valve and it didn't solve the problem then so another one now probably wouldn't do it too. I looked at the parts lookup online and couldn't find the sleeve I will stop at the dealer to see if they can find it. At this point I would like to fix that and replace all seals and clutches then I will be certain their's nothing more I can do interanlly. I will probably replace the line and pump fitting in case it's restricted somewhere I can't see. Thanks to you and Rodinns for the suggestions, I will post the results.   [Reply]  [No Email]
RodInNS 08-11-2012 06:33:07 216.118.158.123 Report to Moderator	Re: Dual power 6610 giving me gray hair in reply to ohjeffoh, 08-10-2012 06:13:30   Hope you get it sorted out.... only other thing I can say to you... in all the time I've spent working on these things... of the things that had me stumped and didn't make sense.... I ALWAYS found I was overlooking something or had assumed something to be true... and when I went back and checked it I found the problem. I'd expect you've done the same in some manner here and that's why a solution eludes you... It's usually something simple and stupid too. Rod   [Reply]  [No Email]
Bern 08-10-2012 19:20:01 66.218.203.220 Report to Moderator	Re: Dual power 6610 giving me gray hair in reply to ohjeffoh, 08-10-2012 06:13:30   Item #1A in this photo, from the 6600 parts manual.   [Reply]  [No Email]
RodInNS 08-08-2012 17:19:34 216.118.158.123 Report to Moderator	Re: Dual power 6610 giving me gray hair in reply to Bern, 08-08-2012 15:27:21   I forget now how I got the sealing rings to stick. Might have been grease... Good to keep in mind about the vaseline tho. Rod   [Reply]  [No Email]
ohjeffoh 08-08-2012 13:55:50 198.30.81.2 Report to Moderator	Re: Dual power 6610 giving me gray hair in reply to RodInNS, 08-08-2012 12:58:49   I removed that screen a couple weeks ago and that helped but didn't solve the problem. I'll get the magnifying glass out tonight and try to look at every square inch of this thing.   [Reply]  [No Email]
RodInNS 08-08-2012 17:21:32 216.118.158.123 Report to Moderator	Re: Dual power 6610 giving me gray hair in reply to ohjeffoh, 08-08-2012 13:55:50   Do you have a lot of crap on the transmission magneitc drain plugs? Stuff that looks like antiseize?   [Reply]  [No Email]
RodInNS 08-08-2012 10:00:01 216.118.158.123 Report to Moderator	Re: Dual power 6610 giving me gray hair in reply to ohjeffoh, 08-08-2012 06:25:58   Interesting.... Bern has given you correct info on the system theory. The pressure circuit must meet it's demand first before any oil is sent to the lube circuit. Even if the plastic tube was missing it would only spill lube oil down the inside of the housing. A couple other thoughts... Does this tractor have MFWD? That is a potential source for a leak. Second... have you checked the inlet strainer for the rear pump section? If you've got a lot of clutch or brake material on the move even a clean strainer will will plug about solid in a short period of time. It can also deceive you in that when you have a gauge dead headed on the DP port and there is no oil flow it can give you a decent reading... BUT when there is flow demand from a clutch shift or even a modest leak... then the pressure drops because there isn't enough oil to fill the void. Third... I know you looked for leaks with the lift cover removed... but did you let the oil level down below the PTO supply tube? There could be a leak in that tube or the o-rings on it, below the nominal oil level... a modest leak even... that again... the PTO control valve will maintain adequate pressure when you have the DP circuit removed but when you rehook that circuit the increased demand causes the pressure loss. If you can confirm with certainty that there is no problem in the back half of the system then logically you have no place left to look but the DP unit and it's valve... I guess I might have to wonder if there's an internal crack in the housing that's allowing pressure to bleed away to sump and you haven't noticed it... or mabey just the sealing rings themselves? I recall them being a rather poison prick to install last time I had one apart... Rod   [Reply]  [No Email]
ohjeffoh 08-08-2012 11:01:30 198.30.81.2 Report to Moderator	Re: Dual power 6610 giving me gray hair in reply to RodInNS, 08-08-2012 10:00:01   That is my understanding also, hi pressure circuit for lock up and low pressure circuit for lube but since the pressure ports for lock up leaks little to no air when testing It has to be flowing oil somewhere else and it has to be either port 1 or 2. No MFWD,and yes I checked the screen at the pump, The IT manual says put the guage in at the pump fitting but I didn't do this I installed it at the valve at the DP seems like that would make more sense. I did not drain the oil to a lower level to expose more of the lines and such, wish I would have done that. The possibility of a crack has crossed my mind too I think I eliminated that by holding air pressure to the lock up ports and one not leaking at all and the other leaked slowly as expected since it pressurizes through the sealing rings on the carrier.   [Reply]  [No Email]
Bern 08-08-2012 06:51:11 66.218.203.63 Report to Moderator	Re: Dual power 6610 giving me gray hair in reply to ohjeffoh, 08-08-2012 06:25:58   First off, IT manuals suck in comparison to factory manuals. Having said that, you'd better be sitting down when you price a factory manual. I don't think it's a lube issue, to be quite honest. The way the system is set up (and it's been a while since I have studied the system, so I am going from memory here), is that the system pressure requirements are met first, and then any remaining oil is passed to the lube system via the cooler. So, regardless of the flow in the cooling circuit, you should have adequate pressure in your clutch pack circuits FIRST. Since your pressure is decent with the DP isolated, one must assume that your leakage is confined to the DP. USUALLY, this is caused by a loss in the seal ring area of the direct clutch. However, this would affect pressure only when you are in direct drive, not underdrive. I am understanding your message to say that you have poor pressure in both direct AND underdrive, correct? There's not much to go wrong with the underdrive circuit. Two clutch piston seals, that's about it. What you might try doing is monitoring the pressure in your lube circuit while shifting between low and direct, and see if that shows anything. If lube pressure goes UP and system pressure goes DOWN when shifting, you likely have "cross contamination" somehow. If both go down when shifting, you then you simply have a major internal leak. Not sure if any of that helps, but it's what pops in my head at this time. Just to clarify though... you have low pressure in BOTH low and high of the DP? Another thing I just thought of. Is that plastic sleeve in place in the cooler line off the PTO valve?   [Reply]  [No Email]
ohjeffoh 08-08-2012 07:27:34 198.30.81.2 Report to Moderator	Re: Dual power 6610 giving me gray hair in reply to Bern, 08-08-2012 06:51:11   Yes pressure is low in both circuits, while I had the top cover off I connected hoses to the oil line and pressure port and routed them to the reservoir and started the tractor to look for leaks. The plastic sleeve you asked about does leak some where it fits into the regulator assy. everything else looked normal to me, lubrication oil coming out of the pto clutch pack. I understand about being away and not remembering all this I was the same way till I split it last weekend and opened the DP then it all started coming back. I'll try to post some pics if I can figure out how to make comments on them.   [Reply]  [No Email]
RodInNS 08-08-2012 13:01:20 216.118.158.123 Report to Moderator	Re: Dual power 6610 giving me gray hair in reply to ohjeffoh, 08-08-2012 07:27:34   Do you have leak off oil at the plastic tube when you lack pressure at the DP valve? If you do... that indicates the the PTO regulating valve is up to pressure because it's dumping to lube. Mabey you should gauge the pump AND the DP control valve and see if you get the same readings. Mabey you have a crushed/kinked/collapsed line? Rod   [Reply]  [No Email]
ohjeffoh 08-08-2012 13:47:11 198.30.81.2 Report to Moderator	Re: Dual power 6610 giving me gray hair in reply to RodInNS, 08-08-2012 13:01:20   I can't say for sure if it leaked while pressure to clutch pack was low. I didn't specifically look for that, now it is completely disassembled too late for that now. The pressure line running from the pump to the DP is small,it wouldn't take much leakage before pressure would drop, I did check the line for any kinks or dings and it looks good. Think I'll invest in another guage.   [Reply]  [No Email]