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timing for a roosa master injection pump engine

F

FrankPetro

New User
I wondered if anyone could help me. I have an international TD-9 loader. By a foolish mistake, straight K-1 kerosene was used for fuel. After a few days running the machine just died out, I ended up pulling the injection pump off to find that the pump (roosa master DBGFC631-4AL) froze up and the shaft broke right off. I bought a replacement pump which I installed back on the engine, I did everything I was told to do, by a farmer friend of mine. I bled out the lines and it pumps fuel good. After the help of some starting fluid, I got the machine to start, but the machine will not throttle up. It is just all white blue smoke and the machine does not have any power to move it when it does start. I am assuming that the timing between the pump and the engine is incorrect. I dont have any kind of information to know how to time the pump to the engine. I know on the timing plate cover on the injection pump, I removed the plate and when I put the engine damper pulley on the top dead center there is no timing mark lined up in the pump. Does anyone know how I would go about timing the injector pump to the engine. Reading on this forum I see alot of people that say that their machine wont start when it is hot, and I always had the same problem, but when it did start, it ran great. If anyone has any advice I would greatly appreciate it.
 
If no one can help, WHY not go to external_link and get the service manual for the orphan red thing and set the timing according to the book?
 
You make sure the engine is at TDC of the compression stroke, and not the exhaust stroke. I assume IH calls for timing for #1 cylinder, but you'd better check. I don't have a TD9 book and IH does not always use #1 cylinder for timing on all engines. Then have the two timing lines in the pump - lined up. Then install.

I assume your pump came with the shaft already in the pump? If not, you can also check the driveshaft timing marks. The end of the driveshat drive-tand has a dimple mark and so does the drive slot inside the pump. Must be installed dimple to dimple or you'll be 180 degrees off.
 
I just got thinking . . . what the heck engine do you have in your TD-9? I thought they were all four cylinder engines, not six. That pump number you gave is for a six cylinder engine.

DBGFC631-4AL means - B series pumps with Die-cast housing, flyweight Governor, Flange mount, Clockwise rotation, 6 cylinders and .31" diameter pumps.

As far as hot start problems go, often when the pump gets some wear, it cannot pump enough fuel to start the engine at cranking speeds when hot. But once the engine is spinning fast enough, the engine can run fine.
 
I just learned something new. I had two TD9s over the years, and both were four-cylinder. I just looked it up in IH book and hadn't realized that IH stuck 656 farm tractor engines into the last TD9s.

Engine does indeed get timed by #1 cylinder either at TDC or 3 degrees BTC depending on serial #. At that time, pump timing lines should be lined up.
 
On the engine damper pulley, there are several zeros and maybe 5 inches or so of timing lines, or marks that is where I am having trouble. I took the valve cover off, to make sure that when I brought the timing mark up to tdc to make sure the valves were both closed on compression stroke. In doing so, when I put it on the first zero, which I was assuming was tdc,, the one valve has the required play and the other valve is still tight. I dont understand that. When I turn it to where the both valves are both completely closed, the marks on the damper pulley aren't on the pointer. I was told that some internationals time from the back of the engine. At this point I cant seem to find what marks to bring up. On the crankshaft the timing marks are about 6 inches long with alot of zeros. That is where I am confused. I dont know where the engine is at tdc? On the damper pulley the lines start off at zeros, go about 10 degrees and then it has another zero, then all the way at the end of the timing marks on the damper pulley it has an "A" which I am assuming is after tdc. that is where my trouble is, I dont know where the correct timing mark is to tdc the engine.
 
While you have the valve cover off remove the injector on the #1 cylinder and gently turn the engine with a piece of soft copper on top of the piston to see when it is exactly on TDC.

Set the pump timing marks in the window and with the timing plate off the front of the engine set the pump into the slots of the drive gear and install the three bolts. Double check the timing marks in the pump timing window.

Actually you should be able to do this timing with the pump already installed with the three bolts out and turn the pump adapter plate from the front till the marks are aligned in the pump timing window. Then install the three bolts into the pump drive gear.

Never Never turn that engine with the starter while the pump is off the engine. You can bust gears and housings etc. becauce the drive gear can hang up without the pump installed to hold it aligned.

Zane
 
Get the valves on #1 where both are closed fully before removing the injector to find TDC.

Maybe then some of the front pulley marks will be aligned.

It is a good idea to be certain that #1 is indeed the one to time it with. I worked in an IH dealership in the late 60s and I remember that the V8 304 and 345 both times off the #8 cylinder. Why some nut came up with that is anybody's guess???? I think IH had a few nuts engineering their stuff back then and before.

Did I ever tell you I hate working on an IH tractor????!!!!!!

Zane
 
I would never just go by what the valves look like at TDC. Just rotate until you see the intake valve open and then close, and then keep going until you hit TDC. Then you know for sure you are on the compression stroke.

As far as the engine damper pulley goes, there ought to be one mark that says TDC.
 
Ok, I checked again. On the damper pulley there is about 5 inches worth of timing marks. On the one end of the marks where they start there is an "A" and on the other end after the five inches of timing marks, there is an "R" that is all there is.
We took the valve cover off, we turned the engine with a socket by hand until the exhaust valve went all the way down and all the way up, and the same on the intake. We pulled the injector out of the head, put a straw in the hole to make sure the piston was up. When we did this the two rocker arms had play in them. The damper pulley was on about 8 degrees from the "A" side, but the timing marks in the injection pump were not lined up. At this point I am open to any suggestions.
 
Take the plate off the front of the engine timing cover and remove the three bolts that hold the injection pump drive adapter and turn the pump till the timing marks come together and that should be right. Replace the three bolts and tighten them up and button up the inspection plate.

Zane
 
Keep on turning the engine. When the marks on the crank pulley are at anywhere from 3 degrees on the A side , to 0 (directly inbetween A and R), the pump timing marks should be in line.
 
I tried it today. I got the engine timing about 3 degrees from the center of the lines toward the A side. The injection pump lines werent lined up. We pulled the injection pump off and turned it completely one turn and then the lines lined up, but when we got it started by using starting fluid, but it still keeps blowing out white smoke and no power. I let it run for a half hour, I kept bleeding the lines with no improvement. Do I need to work more on the timing would you think? At this point I am lost. I dont know what else could be possibly wrong. Any suggestions?
 
You've got me confused now. You turned it a full turn and it made a difference? With the pump itself, that should make NO difference. One full turn just puts it back where you starter. do you mean one half turn? Or is there some sort of reduction drive box hooked to this pump? I do know that some IHs have specail drive-boxes hooked to Roosamaster pumps.

The pump itself turns at half engine speed. So, one full turn of the pump equals two full turns of the engine (the complete up-down, up-down four strokes of the four cycle engine).
 
I moved it from the top to the bottom. On the injection pump and shaft, on the back of the shaft there is a punch hole. On the rotor head there is a punch hole and you are supposed to line up the punch holes. When I do that, the timing mark in the pump window is not lined up when the engine is on TDC. When we took the pump back off, we put the the punch hole on the bottom, not matching the other dot, which was like you said a half turn, the lines in the pump window lined up, so I left it on that way and put it all back on, got it started and bled the lines. The engine wont throttle of up and has just a steady stream of white smoke. I had it running approx 40 min at about half throttle speed. I bled the injectors over and over and made no improvement. I am wondering that maybe the number one cylinder is not the correct one to be timing from. I dont see what else could be the problem. My old pump was a DBGFC631-4AL and the pump that I put on now is a DBGFC637-15AJ
would there be some problem there? I was told when I bought it no, just wondering.
 
The drive dimple mark always goes against the dimple mark inside the pump.

If you had to turn the shaft 1/2 way to make run, something is screwed up.

Who came up with that new pump number for you? Sounds like it's way too big a pump for your crawler. Your original pump used two .31" diameter plungers, and the pump you're using now two .37" plungers. That's a big difference. That .37" pump was intended for engines 350-600 cubic inches, like the TD15 with a 554 or the 806 with the 361 diesel.

Did somebody try to detune that pump to work on your tractor?
 
Do you know if which cylinder is the one to time off of? Is there any way that you can make the pump work? Nothing was to the pump, I bought it used and was told it would work for me. Is there anything that could be done to the pump to make it work or do I need to start looking for another pump? thanks again for all the information. Frank
 
I didn't realize that you're trying to use a pump that was not meant for, or set up for, your engine.

That being said, it probably could be made to work, although not perfect. The pump would probably have to be torn down, timing marks perhaps moved (I don't have the degree specs), delivery valve changed, and fuel delivery turned down.

No matter that you do though, it's a pump designed for a bigger engine. You ought to find a pump with the same size pump plungers as you had originally.
 
that is what I was thinking too. I need one the same. I guess I am back on the search. Took me months to find this one. thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it.
 
There are many options. Just depends on how much you want to do yourself, your time-frame, and how big your wallet is.

There are many places that sell "rebuilt" pumps to fit your machine. $700-$750 with a good core traded in. Also, new 6 cylinder .31" pumps often are for sale on Ebay. There's one there right now for an outright price of $350 and also a "make offer" button. All the main parts of that pump would fit your's. Also, you could opt to fix your old pump. You'd need a new head & rotor, driveshaft (unless you have one), and a seal kit. Maybe $350 in parts.

If I owned a tractor with a 6 cylinder pump, I'd try to buy that new one on Ebay. I'd make an offer of $200 and see what happens. Keep in mind, it's brand new, not patched up and called "rebuilt" like most pumps shops do.
 
I found another pump on ebay. My pump was a DBGFC631-4AL the one on there is a
DBGFC631-1AE
Do you know if that would be the same? I dont know what the last numbers/letters stand for. Please let me know if you do.
 
Sorry, but I have not way of knowing what the end letters and numbers mean. Those indicate whatever option package the company ordered. It can refer to the type of timing advance it uses, special hardware, etc. It's safe to assume that the main components are the same, though.
 
Ok, I got another pump today off of a machine that I know for a fact ran great. the track came off and they junked it. The pump numbers are exactly the same as my original pump. But I am still at a loss to know the timing on the damper pulley. There are 51 lines between R and A. No TDC mark at all. I tried it off the 3 degrees from the center toward the A like someone suggested but it did not work. How can I find out the timing? I was told it was number one cylinder, it was in compression stroke. any advice?
 
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