Another New Guy Question: 3000 Diesel Hard to Start

as the post states, tractor is hard to start. Most of the time requires a 1-second shot of starting fluid to get going. It does not have glow plugs or any factory start assist on the engine. Once started it runs great. Is this normal for this unit?

I am going to convert it to an alternator and maybe install a bigger or an additional battery to help spin it faster.

What are you all seeing on similar units?

Ditch the ether and buy a block heater. That and the larger battery should get you going.

If you still require the ether, you are looking at a rebuild in the semi-near future.

It could also be a tired starter too.

jb

No it's not normal. How cold is it in your area? I use a block heaters so I can avoid the ether, but I haven't started using the heaters yet this year. If you have an in-line injection pump, there is a button on the side of it that can be pushed in to help in starting... if you have the rotary pump, it doens't have this button. Standard battery for that tractor should be a 4DLT. If it has a smaller one, it may not be spinning it fast enough. (on the rare occasions that I use ether, I give it as short a shot as possable... don't do like the directions on the can say and use a 2-3 second spray...that's too much!)

Its not that cold in my area mostly in the 60-70's range recently and she just doesnt want to start. I go very lightly with the ether as I know it will blow up a motor if misused. That is why I just give it a slight shot to start. My pump is a CAV so I do not know if it has the starting button. What puzzles me is that it runs really good and doesnt smoke (the wrong color). It reminds me of a skid loader I was using recently: great strong engine but would not start without glow plugs regardless of the operating temp of the engine.

I am going to put in a new thermostat as it is stuck open or missing and this will help restarts after the first of the day. Then an alternator to help the charging system and a bigger or additional battery to supply as many cranking amps as I can and go from there. Currently the tractor has a generator that is not working and it gets worse and worse as the battery voltage drops. I use a battery charger and it seems to help.

I am going out of town for a week and will start all of this up when I return. I will update my progress also.

Please keep the suggestions coming and as always, thanks for the help.

I agree with the others.. try to get away from the start fluid.. especially on a warm 60-70' day... that machine, if it is not already, will get addicted.

If you don't have the good heavy battery.. ( 4dlt is a monster ! ).. and good cables and good ends.. get them.. using start fluid in place of a good battery is like beting a lame horse because it won't run...

Also.. unless you have continous high electrical load needs exceeding 15-20a.. having an alternator isn't going to help your starting issue any.

If your genny was working, and your electrical load is not constantly high.. it works fine to charge the battery with.

Get the genny working and the good battery and cables and see where you are at.

Repolarize the lucas gen by jumpering bat hot to field.

You can do motor and full field tests to see if it will work..

motor test.. slip belt off, jump bat hot to field and armature... genny should spin.. if it spins.. it should charge.

Full field test.. with it running about 1000 rpm, jump bat hot to the field.. check battery voltage.. if it does not come up, jumper arm to bat, and then bat to field.. if this works. reg is shot... 40-50$ for a new one. if this don't help.. and it fiale dthe motor test.. time for a 90$ swap/rebuild..e tc.

soundguy

run a really good injector cleaner through it.. BG 44k is excellent. change the fuel filters first. and make sure the lift pump is good if your tractor has the big cav pump, which most 3000s have. make sure the air filter is clean as well. make sure the battery is fresh and all cables are new, clean and for diesel should be the larger cables to allow more current to flow through them. If it does not crank fast, then your starter will need to be rebuilt..

after all that is checked... when it starts does it sputter or does it run up quickly?

when it starts does it blow white smoke, black smoke or no smoke?

white means you have dirty injectors or low compression. and the fuel is not burning correctly. some white smoke for a few seconds is ok.. white smoke at idle or longer periods means dirty injectors or low compression..

black means lots of fuel into the engine and should only appear at first or when you gun the engine.. a good injector pump will make the engine put out black smoke for a second or two when you gun it..

grey smoke, almost white can mean it burning oil and engine will have lots of blow-by..

after you have checked all of these... the timing of the injector pump can be a bit retarded and cause lots of cranking time. but runs good otherwise. advancing the pump a couple of degrees will correct this problem and make it start quickly.. a defective primary pump will also require lot of cranking to get fuel into the injector pump. a worn injection pump will also require lots of cranking to finally develop the pressure to pop open the injectors...

but last of all low compression will cause very very poor starting, especially when the tractor is cold. the engine uses compression heat to heat the cyls up to 425 degrees to fire off the diesel fuel. low compression means it takes lots of cranking or in your case, your shooting in either that will fire off at 160 degrees..

you will need to evaluate each one of the above possibilities to find your problem. If you have a diesel compression tester.. you can save a bit of time.

60-70's and it needs ether?! Must be a low battery and/or tired starter... or low compression. Even an undersized battery should start it OK, if fully charged, at those temps. My 4600 (bigger 3-cyl. diesel, 7800+ hours on it) starts down to 50 degrees or colder w/o any help... then I use the thermostart. Plug it in if it gets below 35 or so.
Sounds like you're heading in the right direction with repairs, maybe check teh starter for current draw, too.

Try taking the strainer out of the fuel pump & see if it's got any trash in it. That may cause a lack of pressure for start up.

I suspect that most of your problems are related to the starter/battery/charging system.

First of all, does the engine crank at roughly 200 rpm on the tach? If it doesn't, you have starting system problems. It needs to turn at 200 rpm.
Start by charging the battery fully and boosting as you attempt to start it.
Remove all cables and clean the connections at the battery and starter. Tighten the jamb nut on th estarter ground lug if the lug is loose.
The cables should be a 2/0, and get rid of any of those replacement clamp on cable ends. use a crush on end of some type or solder them in place. Something to get a good connection.
The battery should be a 4DLT. That's the largest CCA and reserve capacity battery that can be fitted to those tractors due to height constraints with the hood.
If the engine is still dodgy turning over, I'd pull the starter and have a good starter shop throw a set of brushes and bushings in it (tune up).

That should take care of it.
If it doesn't then I'd expect that you're dealing with a worn out engine. How much oil does it burn? If it's burning some, it's probably got low compression. They still run pretty strong like that, and will run a long time yet... but they start hard and burn more fuel. It's probably not worth a rebuild unless you really use it a lot.

There is also the possibility that there is a SLIGHT airleak somewhere in the fuel system. I've got a 4000 like that and I refuse to pay a hundred bucks for the line it needs for all the work I do with the tractor. I either give it a shot of ether or a feed of propane if it's cranky about starting (which it sometimes is). That's enough to make it fire and get speed enough up that it pulls the air through... and off it goes. something to consider.

Rod

Sound.... You know what I'm about to say, but I'm going to say it anyway.

This is a perfect canidate for an alternator. It's got a gen that never charges and probably won't for any length of time after it's 'fixed'. Hence the poor battery. That'll lead to a dead battery in about 6 weeks time, and a new battery, and probably another in about a year plus 6 weeks time, and so it goes....
Chuck it, now. Get the alt. Move on with life.

Rod

Actually.. according to the facts of the message.. we can't assume the genny is bad.. and we can't make assumptions that it will go bad.. or stay bad if it's fixed.

We've heard that he thinks the regulator is trashed.

That alone will prevent it from charging, and kill the battery.. leaving it drained like it is.

In all likelyhood a 40$ reg may be all he needs.. and not an alternator and brackets.. and a splice dup wire harness.. IMHO.. that's the 'long' road.. it's certaintly the expensive road.

You said the same thin about the gen on my 5000.. yet it's doing just fine.

I did specify that if he had / had need of constant electrical loads exceeding 15a that he would benefit from an alternator.. etc... but for just simple battery maintenance and 3 lamps... the oem genny puts out plenty of juice..

IF the genny and vreg are both bad.. that changes it a bit, as the new parts will be close to 150$ to get back into a genny..e tc..

soundguy

Yours? You tinker with it all the time, or at least had a jumper wired to a momentary switch to keep exciting it/ repolarizing it? If you didn't you'd be dicking with it all the time.

And yes, it is safe to assume that any thousand series Ford tractor with a Lucas gen/reg that's not working is NOT worth fixing. They're just not worth the aggravation.
The only way I'd have that setup today is on an exact, complete restoration of one of those tractors, and one that was a trailer queen at that.
Anyone that owned those tractors in this area either had constant trouble with charging or they installed an alternator... or they keep the tractor on a trickle charger when it's not in use to maintain the battery.
Might be differnet in your area with humidity, etc and the system stands up better, but here they're nothing but trouble.

Rod

Don't you recall having a conversation with me a while back where i repalced my reg and rebuilt the gen?

No more jumper wire to polarize it.. etc... it simply works like it is suposed to.

""And yes, it is safe to assume that any thousand series Ford tractor with a Lucas gen/reg that's not working is NOT worth fixing. They're just not worth the aggravation""

Opinion only. Plenty of genny systems out there still operational.

They aren't worth the aggravation to you.. and that's fine... Some of like genny systems.. they do offer a few tangible benefits.. like fault tolerance. Reverse polarity on an alternator kill sit in milliseconds usually.. not so on a gen system.. At worst a regulator or a smoked wire.. at best.. nothing much..

soundguy

Yes, I recall that conversation. That would be the one where you rewired a B circuit reg to fit the Lucas gen, correct? I suppose I might do something like that too if I had some overwhelming desire to have a generator.

As far as those charging systems are concerned in general, there are SOME still in operation. I think you'd find that there's a strong majority that have been converted though. 99% of them were constantly troublesome to some degree, and that's a fact. What you or I want to do about it, or what I think is better is opinion.

After you've had your 5 for another couple years and rebuilt the gen again and installed a few more regs you might get tired of it too unless you just like spending time working on it. It'll nickle and dime you to death. You'll spend the price of an alt in the sum of your 5 and 10 dollar repairs in the run of a few years, and then you'll buy a battery or two because you got caught out on the highway at night and your lights run the battery stone dead before you get home... things like that.
I have absolutely zero patience for that. If I put an alt on today I don't want to look at it again for 10-15 years.
'Fault tolerance' is not of any benefit to me, or at least it's a risk I'm more than willing to take. I've fried a total of one rectifier on an alternator from reversed polarity and that was on a 100+ amp Leece on a truck. It wasn't from boosting either. It was from hooking a cable up incorectly after some starter repairs. Do that once and you learn to check the next time...

Rod

I have pretty good faith in ford regs.

No rewireing was needed to fit a non lucas reg... in the end.. field, armature and batttery are the only important parts needed between the reg and the gen.

""99% of them were constantly troublesome ""

That's an arbitrary number that you are quoting as fact.. While the number may be high.. 99% is awefull high.

Fault tolerance means alot more when there are more than one set of hands on a machine.. If I was the only one that ever touched my machines.. it'd be different.. however I regularly rope my friends in to doing chores on my farm on the weekend. elps me out.. and gives them some dirt under their fingernails and they can brag to their friends that they have farm experience.

I think the point really is.. you don't like them genneies.. or having to touch them... that's simply a personal choice.

Onthe other hand.. i went to school for electronics... moving electrons excite me... I have more soldering iron and solder burns on my hand than probably any other type of injuries I've ever recieved.. all added together. even before college I was into electronics.. back to when I was 8-10 I was doing high school level intro to electronics experiments.

None of the super simple electronics on these old machines bothers me in the least.. I find them quite robust... the fact that we see them running after decades with not much more than a drip of oil in a oil cap and a set of brushes attests to their sturdy build.

I willalso say that when it comes to lucas electronics.. at least for the tractors anyway.. I hear of a whole lot more vreg problems.. than genny problems.. In the end.. I'd much rather have an electrical problem to tackle vs a mechanical problem... copper and lead don't scare me in the least.. nor does it annoy me..

You said it yourself.. you have no patience for messing with that kind of thing... that's the real issue here.

I'd have no patience for a 'as advertised' finicky SOS trans. i see way more problems posted about them here than lucas electrics. And I can assure you.. the first time I had an sos problem ( if I had one ).. I'd much prefer it to be a repolerize and check connections.. or 1 minute of soldering after making a vom check.. etc...

soundguy