Seized Engine

I tried to reply to the thread here but it's old and archived.

http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=ferg&th=53841

I too have got a seized Ferguson (TED 20). My question is, if I remove the plugs and pour in some kerosene etc and wait 3 days and it does free up the engine, how do I then go about draining the kerosene? Where does it go? Or does it not need to be drained? Thanks
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you might want to use a mix of ATF & diesel fuel, 3/1.
many have had good results, letting that set a few days..
 
Pull the plugs out and turn the engine over. The excess will come out the holes. Change the oil before cranking it. Now with the holes open and fresh oil, crank it over with a large heavy towel over the plug holes. No Blanket? It will blow Cr*p everywhere. Done blowing? install the plugs, fire it up.
 
Alright thanks. I tried today without the kerosene, with a pry bar on the flywheel and it wouldn't move at all, so I'm hoping this works. It's been stood in the field not running for 15 years. When I took out the dipstick there was just water.
 
Fill the cylinder with ATF put the plugs back in so dirt etc does not get in. Then after a week or so set a 12 volt battery in it and pull the plugs out and use short fast taps on the starter button how even it is set up and watch for the crank pulley to move. If it spins up the ATF will be pumped out the spark plug holes simple as that and yes it can make a mess
 
ATF & diesel fuel, 3/1

As the oil pan was full of water....If you really want to try to save this locked engine, of which there is a small chance after 15 years....Fill the entire engine with that mix. Fast math makes about 15 gallons for a complete fill through the oil cap and in the cylinders. 15/4=? 1/4 of that is ATF. Mix it up and have a pouring good time. Let set for a week and with the plugs out, see if it rotates. Either way., draining the crankcase will take a large container.
 

Some capacities that might be useful for the restoration .

Fuel tank , 36 litres
Engine sump , 6.8 litres
Air cleaner bowl , .43 l
Transmission , 22.8 l
Steering box , 2.9 l
Front hubs , .35 l
PTO belt drive pulley , .28 l
Cooling system , 8.5 l

I swear by acetone or thinners mixed in equal pats with automatic transmission fluid . It worked on the stuck engine of my '57 FE 35 .
Use lots , see if you can get old atf from a repair shop , it works just as well as new stuff .
I would drain and clean the sump and fill it with the same mixture as well to try to loosen the big ends . If it does move drain and flush before filling with new oil before starting .
 
Pull the plugs BEFORE cranking, it will blow it out the spark plug holes if it frees up, will bend things if you do not pull plugs and crank.
 
What is 'diesel fuel'? I've only heard one word 'diesel'. Now I've asked my dad and he's talking about red diesel, diesel that you put in a car and diesel that is powering our boiler for heating. So which is diesel fuel? I need to know as he's got a huge stash of diesel and various oils. Thanks
 
Diesel fuel and Diesel are the same thing, it is just dyed different, red = no road tax, green = road tax.

If you get caught on the highway with red diesel, big fines.
 
The sump is 6.8, That's just fine. Your not merely filling the sump. Your filling the engine. Entirely.
Your adding GALLONS to the oil fill. Fill that sucker up to the valve cover from the inside. Seal the oil stick hole shut. Is it filled? Good. Now pull the plugs out and fill those up also. Let it all soak for a week or so. Pull the plugs and try to turn it over.
This is a drastic action because when you pulled the dip stick, all you got was water. How much water was in the engine? Did it go to the pistons from the bottom up? Did it freeze the crankshaft?
Now you know why you filled the engine entirely with gallons of fluid. This side of the pond uses gallons. Sorry 'bout that. You can look up a gallon to liter conversion chart. I know it takes about 11 gallons to fill a 4 cyl engine from the inside.
 
Alright thanks for the information. The one thing in its favour is if I stick my hand in through the port on the side of the sump (not all tractors have this) everywhere that I can feel is covered in thick gloopy black/grey oil. Which I have now removed. The water was just sitting on top of it. Anyway I'll give it a go.
 
How did so much water get in there anyway? Just through the exhaust silencer? I don't really want it to happen again when it's fixed.
 
nigglenoggins, sorry to hear about your Fergy, but I can offer genuine hope. My rebuild is maybe 2 or 3 months ahead of you. The water had got in through a very rotten air intake. A badly seized engine.
I soaked it and tried force using the crank nut the pto shaft and rocking the tractor.

I dropped the sump and left the plugs out, judging by the state of the spark plugs piston 2 and I think 3 were rusted solid to the cylinder liners.
I had propped the tractor up using the starting handle to apply turning force to the crank while it soaked for a month with a mix of acetone and ATF in the cylinders. No luck.
Then I bought a headgasket kit and got ready to pull the head but remembered a trick that I picked up.
With a pair of jack stands holding the front rims just off the workshop floor, I used a hydraulic jack to lift the front of the tractor about 4 inches up and put another jackstand under the big end bearing of one of the stuck cylinders. Then I balanced a 1 inch thick piece of rebar ontop of the jackstand so that the journal bolt farthest from the centre line of the crank shaft was directly above it by about a full inch.
Then I used the screw release on the hydraulic jack to suddenly drop the front of the tractor that 1 inch till the outer most journal bolt hit the flat top of the 1 inch rebar. Putting the whole force of the tractor weight between the hardened bolt and the soft rebar. I knew that if it moved to the side or missed the tractor would be caught by the two jack stands unde the front axles.
This freed the stuck pistons from the liners and my fergy is now ready to run again. i will try to add some pictures.
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1685.jpg
 
There will also be water in the transmission/hydraulic/differential housings.

And there may still be water standing in the cylinders. That needs to come out before the diesel or penetrating oil can get to the rings. If you have a compressor, try blowing in the cylinders first, try to blow all the water out you can.
 
Nigel. Diesel fuel and fuel oil used in your boiler are NOT the same thing. Use the diesel for the tractor. It will have different additives in it than the fuel for the boiler. It may help, I wish you luck, sounds like a rebuild is in the future.
 
Michael QLD OZ - Have you got anymore photos showing how you jacked up the tractor before dropping it onto the rebar? Many thanks
 
I will have a look. But all I did was put my trolley/floor jack under the front axle pivot point.
Remove the sump and then put one axle stand underneath the crank where it connects to a big end bearing.
Balance a piece of rebar on top of the axle stand and lower the tractor using the trolley jack so the weight of the whole thing is on the crank bigend bearing connection and the piece of rebar ontop of an axle stand.
Im doing the same thing at the moment with a MH475 but its all througn a small oil cleaner opening cause I cant get the sump off while the engine is in the tractor.
I will take a few photos of that and it will explain.
 
Ok, first the piece of 1" rebar balanced on top of the axle stand.
Then the tractor front axle jacked up off the other two axle stands.
2306.jpg
2307.jpg
 
Looking up from below the engine. Far right of photo is the crank bearing housing, a static point. Centre of photo is the big end bearing housing with casting id information across it and in a circle on it. That is the end of the conrod and because this piston is halfway down the end of the conrod is sticking out 90 deg from the centre of the circle it makes inline with the crankshaft bearing housing.
The bolts which hold that conrod bearing housing in place are what I line up with the piece of rebar balanced on the jack stand.
2308.jpg
2309.jpg

The chain allows me to put down force on the same bearing housing so in effect when I do get it to move up by a fraction I can then pull it back down to its start point.
So once its in this position I return to the front of the tractor and let down the hydraulic jack.
 
If I had found an engine that the head gasket is still available for I would have already pulled the head and started that way. But in this case a perkins L4 I will have to make do with a 270 D 4 gasket according to those who say they know. So i'm going farther than I would usually to avoid pulling the head.
 
Alright, thanks very much. I haven't yet taken the sump off. Did you try a crowbar on the flywheel at all before doing any of this?
 
yes i tried the crowbar, it is a little difficult to get any purchase due to the round hole you are levering against, when you remove the starter. But that is worth a try, and its only a couple of bolts to remove the starter, remember to try levering in both directions.
 
I've got the sump off. Does the rebar have to be under the bolts? Mine is slightly different. I was thinking about putting it straight on the conrod but using a piece of nylon rather than rebar.

How did you manage to hold the rebar in place and release the jack at the same time?! I'm sure I can figure something out but just wondering.

Cheers

<image src="http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/photos/mvphoto3421.jpg"/>
a171778.jpg
 
Anyway, I have tried dropping it using your technique onto an oak post (I didn't want to use metal). Tried 20 times and no movement. I've looked up into the cylinders and its fairly rusted up and a lot of crystalline residue.

For now I've sprayed some release oil/WD40 into the spark plug holes and also up into the cylinders etc from underneath. Literally covered everything in oil and left it balancing under its own weight on the post for a few more days.
 
I had the unfortunate pleasure of inspecting, and making suggestions on the dismantling of a Rolls Royce Turbine that ended up in the pacific ocean (flooded with SALT water).It would appear your engine is also from the UK, although not in salt water, definitely was the recipient of some form of ancient lubricating cocktail.........:(

Bob...Retired Gas Generator Tech & Power Engineer.....
 
I understand your reluctance to use a steel post to drop the bigend bearing housing onto. I believe that the oak post would do the job, if it can be done that way.
You may have to pull the cylinder head. But if you do, first remove the pressure from below the piston pushing up that way you will not slide the entire wet liner out if you dont want to.
Once you can acces the top of the piston some heat may help. I used a blowtorch on a diesel that I had to free.
3497.jpg

The pieces of square tube are in place to keep the wet liners down when i hammered down on one piston to bring up another, as they were both still connected to the crank shaft.
 
I cut the end of the rebar flat so that it stood upright ontop of the axle stand on its own. Then jacked up the engine and put the rebat and stand inplace below the bigend bearing bolt, then first time very slowly lowered the engine til they touched. Had a good look and jacked the engine back up to adjust the position of the axle stand and rebar.
Next time I released the jack as fast as I could allowing the tractor engine to drop freely about 1 or 2 inches onto the rebar.
 

Nigel , the last thing I would want to do is dampen enthusiasm for anything to do with old tractors but I really do think that you must face up to some realities .
From the sight of the closeup photographs of the big end bearings it seems like / is fairly obvious, that they are seized so badly that they are beyond a simple release through force . In fact if they ever do move it is more likely to happen because the bearing shells will probably disintegrate due to the force .
Then of course there is the question of the rings and pistons jammed in the liners , even if you did manage to free the engine the first start would score whatever was left of the mating surfaces beyond redemption .
This is not to say that the tractor is beyond saving , it is just that you may need to re evaluate your approach.

Try this ; remove one big end bearing cap and the shell if you can remove it in one piece . The difficulty in prising it off the crank shaft journal will give some indication of just how difficult it will be to free off the rest of the engine . If you are encouraged by the look of it and the crank then loosen off the rest which can only help free the engine . You won't do any harm in trying this and you might save yourself an accident or injury mucking about by slamming a one ton machine down while you are near it.
 
Thanks for that. I might give it a go but it doesn't look too good up in the cylinders. I might just sell it.

(quoted from post at 05:53:50 09/16/17)
Nigel , the last thing I would want to do is dampen enthusiasm for anything to do with old tractors but I really do think that you must face up to some realities .
From the sight of the closeup photographs of the big end bearings it seems like / is fairly obvious, that they are seized so badly that they are beyond a simple release through force . In fact if they ever do move it is more likely to happen because the bearing shells will probably disintegrate due to the force .
Then of course there is the question of the rings and pistons jammed in the liners , even if you did manage to free the engine the first start would score whatever was left of the mating surfaces beyond redemption .
This is not to say that the tractor is beyond saving , it is just that you may need to re evaluate your approach.

Try this ; remove one big end bearing cap and the shell if you can remove it in one piece . The difficulty in prising it off the crank shaft journal will give some indication of just how difficult it will be to free off the rest of the engine . If you are encouraged by the look of it and the crank then loosen off the rest which can only help free the engine . You won't do any harm in trying this and you might save yourself an accident or injury mucking about by slamming a one ton machine down while you are near it.
 
Thanks for all the help. I'll see how it goes over the next couple of weeks.

(quoted from post at 00:24:30 09/16/17) I understand your reluctance to use a steel post to drop the bigend bearing housing onto. I believe that the oak post would do the job, if it can be done that way.
You may have to pull the cylinder head. But if you do, first remove the pressure from below the piston pushing up that way you will not slide the entire wet liner out if you dont want to.
Once you can acces the top of the piston some heat may help. I used a blowtorch on a diesel that I had to free.
3497.jpg

The pieces of square tube are in place to keep the wet liners down when i hammered down on one piston to bring up another, as they were both still connected to the crank shaft.
 

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