Water in engine AGAIN

I am nearly fed up with this. A few weeks ago I replaced the head gasket in my TED20. It ran fine for a while after that, but before long there was evidence of water in the oil and the engine again.

I retensioned the head last week. The water caused some trouble starting, but then it ran well for a while. Now it is so wet it will not start without hours of coaxing and when it runs it spits smoke and seems to be running on 2 cylinders.

When I replaced the head gasket, the old one looked pretty new - so someone had tried the same thing not too long ago.

Is it possible there are cracks in the head or the block that I can't see?

Could the water be getting in past anything other than the head gasket?

Should I give up and just buy another tractor?

- TS

didn't you have the head magnafluxed when you had it off ?? thats the first thing you should do and have it milled also if it needs it and it most likely will

assuming this is a wet sleeve set-up.Each cylinder has 2 rubber O rings at their base. If these are damaged or missing--antifreeze will drip down into oil pan.
You can drop the oil pan and look up from bottom with a trouble light and see if you can see antifreeze droplets coming from somewhere.
Also, with pan off, put new clean cardboard under her over night and follow water spot straight up to locate source.
As much water as you are stating, a warped head might be the problem.
Hope you can solve this.
Mark

(quoted from post at 10:05:45 03/26/08) didn't you have the head magnafluxed when you had it off ?? thats the first thing you should do and have it milled also if it needs it and it most likely will

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No, I didn't, as I didn't really expect any cracks.

- TS

(quoted from post at 10:47:48 03/26/08) You can drop the oil pan and look up from bottom with a trouble light and see if you can see antifreeze droplets coming from somewhere.
Mark

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Thanks, I'll do this.

- TS

Cracks are unusual in the Standard head or engine block. I'd be inclined to have the head checked for warp and mill if necessary. Also, did you check that the wet sleeves stand proud of the block? I forget the clearance required but I think John (UK) posted it recently and it is also in the manual.

My local man told me they could not magniflux a head because they couldn't see in the passages. So they do a pressure test of the cooling jacket. They do magniflux wet sleeve blocks after the sleeves are removed. Is he on the level or not?

(quoted from post at 15:20:22 03/26/08) Cracks are unusual in the Standard head or engine block. I'd be inclined to have the head checked for warp and mill if necessary. Also, did you check that the wet sleeves stand proud of the block? I forget the clearance required but I think John (UK) posted it recently and it is also in the manual.

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Thanks Bob, I'll check for head warp (I guess I have to get a mechanic to do this?).

John (UK) did post the clearance, but it was a number so small I don't know how you would measure it... but at least I'll check that they are not inset.

I'm not beaten yet.

- TS

On the Standard engine there is no o-rings to seal the sleeves. It is two flat gaskets, and if the sleeves have been moved a little, it is most likely there the leaks comes from.
Sparex have them, S.42488, you have to order 2 of them, to get a complete set for 4 cylinders.
But, you will need the sump gasket too then. Sparex has that gasket separately too, S.41726.

There is one other place you can look, and that is around the aluminum plug in the middle of the head, close to the rocker cover gasket surface on the right side of the engine. Check for cracks around it.

Bill

[b:9419a3c573]TS.[/b:9419a3c573]

You can check the head for warps with two steel rules/straight edges on edge, one at each end of the head and visually sight across the top edge of the steel rules. If there is warp it should be apparent. A machine shop would be able to do the same thing with a dial guage and should be able to pressure test the head to eliminate the possibility of cracks.

If in doubt get a machine shop to mill the head a few thou - should not be too expensive.

Yes, John posted the measurement the sleeves should stand proud of the block - you should be able to search that or I could look it up for you in my manual. I'd go about that again with a steel rule/straight edge across each sleeve and measure the gap to the block with a feeler guage.

There is a number of other possibilities for the source of the coolant leak as others have mentioned. Block and head cracks are unusual in the Standard engine - is there any sign of wet plugs or water in a cylinder as this [u:9419a3c573]may[/u:9419a3c573] be an indication of a cracked head (but also indicative of a leaking head gasket)? The lower cylinder sleeve gasket is also a possibility but as replacing those involves almost a total engine strip and rebuild, I'd be eliminating all other possibilities first.

The Standard engine is very reliable and robust, is not generally prone to the cracking problems of the Continental engine and in normal service gives no problems. Indeed, I think the TEA/TED20s were the best of the little gray Fergies.

If you need that section of the manual scanned you could email me: [email protected]

Good luck - I hope you find your problem!

Bob in Oz!

Thanks, I'm not a TE guy and was just offering a view point.
I learned something new today. Mark

(quoted from post at 15:09:44 03/27/08) [b:39ace0571a]TS.[/b:39ace0571a]

You can check the head for warps with two steel rules/straight edges on edge, one at each end of the head and visually sight across the top edge of the steel rules.
...

Yes, John posted the measurement the sleeves should stand proud of the block -... I'd go about that again with a steel rule/straight edge across each sleeve and measure the gap to the block with a feeler guage.

Bob in Oz!

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Thanks again. It looks like I still have a few things to check out before giving up!

Unfortunately I won't get the chance for a couple of weeks, but when I do, I will surely report back.

Thanks to everyone who has tried to help

- TS

No worries Mark,

I want to add something I came to think about. Some people say we shall measure how far the sleeve protrude over the block surface.

Well, I agree, but, the Standard engine is not as many other engines.
As I said, the bottom sleeve seal is not an o-ring, but a flat gasket made as figure 8, meaning it covers 2 cylinders.
The thickness of the flat gasket determines how far above the block surface the sleeve gets. So, it also means that if the gasket is too thin, the top of the sleeve could even be below the block surface.
My exerience with the Sparex gasket is that it makes the sleeves protrude more than what the shop manuals say. But, we can not say this is wrong, because it depends of the gaskets softness and how much it will be pressed down when the head if placed on top.

Also, if the gasket is not entire flat, like mine was, the sleeves protrude even more than when the gasket is completely flat but before it is pressed down.

I scratched my head a bit about this, but I just had to accept the way it was.


Bill

Toora, I do sympathise having been down the same route with my TED20. I replaced my old severly cracked engine with a better one and completely rebuilt it (new liners, pistons,head skimmed etc.) which is not difficult. Liners should protrude by around 4thou - stick a steel ruler across the top of the liner and if you can see any daylight between rule and block you should be OK. After rebuild, all was fine until I left it over winter. Come spring water in oil/oil in water. Took the head off and noticed that the fibre based gasket had managed to get a "crease" in it. Replaced gasket with a new one (only use the copper ones) and all was well. I have over torqued slightly by a couplem of lb/ft as my liners where only just proud (by about 2thou) of the block - all has been well since.

I took the head off again yesterday and found that the new gasket had a great big hole in it. The section between cylinders 3 and 4 had completely disintegrated.

I now know what caused the leak then, but what could have caused such a massive gash in a new gasket?

I also checked the cylinder sleeves and they are low - virtually flush with the block - so this time while I have the head off I will also check out the gaskets below the cylinders - if I can work out how to.

- TS

Here is a pic of the blown head gasket:


- TS

How bl___y frustrating!!!!

Looks like the gasket is burnt through, a result of blow-by due to the sleeves being too low?

You will need to replace and adjust the banjo gaskets under the sleeves.

If you need the manual section relating to the engine scanned, send me an email [email protected]

Bob in Oz

(quoted from post at 00:07:31 04/16/08) How bl___y frustrating!!!!

Looks like the gasket is burnt through, a result of blow-by due to the sleeves being too low?

You will need to replace and adjust the banjo gaskets under the sleeves.

If you need the manual section relating to the engine scanned, send me an email [email protected]

Bob in Oz

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Yeah, I guess it is because of the sleeves being too low. I was wondering if tensioning it to the reasonable max might help, to delay the fact of replacing the sleeve gaskets?

I will get that manual off you though - thanks.

- TS

[b:5d17332214]TS. [/b:5d17332214]

I don't think there is any easy "fix" for what appears to be your problem, short of replacing the banjo gaskets and adjusting the sleeve height. My experience of temporary fixes is that they usually end up in tears of frustration.

I mailed you the CD with the complete, original Ferguson maintenance service manual and instruction manuals and a collection of my other Fergy documents. Even if you can't get the Fergy running, you have many hours of very interesting reading ahead!!!

Australia Post willing, you should have the CD by the end of the week.

Good luck!

Bob in XXXXLand!

Thanks very much Bob (Aust),
I am very much looking forward to receiving that package!

- TS

...and thanks again. The package arrived yesterday. Unfortunately I had no time to look at it last night, and I forgot to bring it in to work this morning, but I'm looking forward to seeing it tonight!

- TS

(quoted from post at 10:43:50 04/22/08) ...and thanks again. The package arrived yesterday. Unfortunately I had no time to look at it last night, and I forgot to bring it in to work this morning, but I'm looking forward to seeing it tonight!

- TS

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Ha Toora Stephen... was just reading this post on your blown new head gasket... Did you ever fix this problem??

Pete

Hi Pete,
in fact I did solve the problem (albeit temporarily).

I replaced the cylinder liner gaskets (a big job for me) and the tractor ran well for a couple of years.

However, water started getting in the engine again. I tried replacing the cylinder liner gaskets again but this time it was not so successful. I might have messed up the job or there might be a crack or some sort of gap. The tractor runs but water leaks into the system, but I have put that all on hold for a while and am concentrating on my new (old) TEA20 which seems to be in much better condition but is now lacking power.

- TS

Yes i had to replace one sleeve in my ted20 and hence the sleeve was pround of the block, i filled the sleeve seat with jb weld as it was a bit buggered. and this has worked. The other 3 cylinder sleeves where pretty much flush with the block. so was a little concerened when refitting the head, but it still going.

I did a leak down test on it the other nite as there is something not quiet right. I replace the rings on all cylinders.

I was getting air leaking past the rings on the 3 cylinders where i only replaced the rings, not sure if this is a problem as its not exactly a high reving engin. Probably means it will blow some smoke.

But if i did it again i would replace the sleeves and check the pistions for roundness, but the one sleeve i did was painful to remove.

I have just bought another ted20 to do up and sell. It funny when you get a new toy how your attention changes. this one is newer its a 53, it seems to run better and i have noticed some subtle changes from my 51 TED


hope you sort your lack of power in the new one

Pete