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Harry Ferguson Tractors Discussion Forum
Show Parts for Model:

TO-35 Starting and Running issues

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Hezsus

07-08-2014 07:24:50
216.46.146.195



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Hi all, new to this forum and to these old tractors, I have done some extensive research on them though. heres what I have.

its a 1959 TO-35 or MF-35 with the 23c Diesel. I have the individual glow plugs and the flame heater plug.
When I got the tractor the original glow plugs were all bad and the owner was starting it on fluid. I replaced the plugs with parallel wired 12v ones, changed the oil and replaced leaking seals on the top cap of the fuel pump. 20s of heat and it fired right up in about 5c weather.

Now its about 25-30c out and It will barely start. fluid is zero help. I basically turn it over for a good 2 min with the heat to get it going, tons of black smoke that dissapears after idling a little.

It also bogs down and pours black smoke when under a heavy load, It will stall in 1st high if I quickly release the clutch at low throttle. There is also white smoke coming from the breather/blowby tube on the exhaust side of the engine, and none coming out of the exhaust.

I'm not sure where to start, fuel lift pump? fuel pump? injectors? or am i looking at a rebuild?

Thanks in advance

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hezsus

07-09-2014 18:13:54
216.46.151.14



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 Re: TO-35 Starting and Running issues in reply to Hezsus, 07-08-2014 07:24:50  
So I had a bit of time tonight, I took out the injectors, they all look clean enough (on the inside.. lots of soot on the outside. I cleaned the air filter, But i will try it with the hose completely removed. when i did the seals on the pump i did have the cover off, i was very careful not to get any dirt or anything anywhere but its possible I did. I checked the lift pump by removing the lines before, and after the filters, the same flow it seemed,It would pulse on and off, i"m assuming this is proper, it delivered a decent stream, would shoot about 4-5" horizantal.
The problem seemed to happen right away, not over time, its been getting worse it seems since i"ve had the starting problems. I didnt notice any missing coolant, but will check again for bubbles when running (if it will now.. waiting on a charged battery)
I have a compression tester, just a cheap one but I will try it tomorrow, what should I be looking for as far as numbers? I"d be interested in the timing chain tensioner test as well.
If this engine does need rebuilt I am willing to go that far, pending I have the necessary tools.

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Dieseltech

07-09-2014 19:36:20
199.16.223.2



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 Re: TO-35 Starting and Running issues in reply to hezsus, 07-09-2014 18:13:54  
Compression minimum would be 300 PSI, ideally should be 350-400 at least. If you have a gas tester I doubt it will work at all, diesel testers either bolt in place of the injectors or the glow plugs.



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Hezsus

07-11-2014 04:25:15
216.46.146.195



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 Re: TO-35 Starting and Running issues in reply to Dieseltech, 07-09-2014 19:36:20  
So I couldnt get it started. Compression test went badly. I got going from the steering wheel to the front i got 300+psi, just under 300psi, 140/150PSI then 156/160 PSI.
This is probably my problem... is there any way that timing or anything can affect that?



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DrLoch

07-11-2014 05:32:01
96.10.233.18



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 Re: TO-35 Starting and Running issues in reply to Hezsus, 07-11-2014 04:25:15  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Timing won't effect those values. You either have a blown head gasket between 1 & 2 (Very front cylinder is number 1) or the rings are completely gone on those two cylinders or the pistons are coming apart. Oil going completely black on a diesel is not unheard of, now the metallic on the dipstick on the other hand is not a good sign. As far a getting another tractor..... can you do the rebuild work yourself? They sell the kits to do a rebuild of a 23C on this site. If you decide to rebuild it your self there are other things that you do that make it start and run better. Also, you when it is apart you can check/fix any timing chain issues. On mine the chain was stretched and the tensioner was worn out and binding. I never checked the valve timing prior to tear down but given the state of the tensioner and the chain the valve and injector timing wasn't where it needed to be for decent starting and running. Operating glow plugs are a must on an indirect diesel so it would seem. I heard that there is a way to convert these motors to direct inject but I haven't fully investigated that option as of yet, but I will when the time comes.

If you decide to rebuild it yourself there are a number of people on this site that can provide valuable information to help you though process.

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Hezsus

07-11-2014 09:32:25
216.46.146.195



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 Re: TO-35 Starting and Running issues in reply to DrLoch, 07-11-2014 05:32:01  
I will probably tear down the tractor, if it is a head gasket it should not cost me too much, I have a feeling it may be piston/ring related. I know that once I get into the pistons, head, timing chain, fuel pump, injectors .ect i'll be looking at a pretty big bill. But the Tractor is worth very little as a non runner, thank you for your information this far. I'll have more questions i'm sure



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DrLoch

07-11-2014 11:49:56
96.10.233.18



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 Re: TO-35 Starting and Running issues in reply to Hezsus, 07-11-2014 09:32:25  

When you remove the head remember to use bolts and washers to hold the cylinder liners down/in the block.



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Hezsus

07-14-2014 07:29:03
216.46.146.195



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 Re: TO-35 Starting and Running issues in reply to DrLoch, 07-11-2014 11:49:56  
So when I get the head off the liners will try and come out of the block right away? or just put in bolts/washers to hold them for when I turn the engine over manually? sorry if this is a stupid question, never been too far into an engine before, and nothing diesel or this old.



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DrLoch

07-14-2014 07:49:44
96.10.233.18



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 Re: TO-35 Starting and Running issues in reply to Hezsus, 07-14-2014 07:29:03  
The liners will not come out when you remove the head as long as you don't turn the engine over. You want the bolts and washers to hold the liners down so the don't pop up if/when you turn the motor over with the head off. No stupid questions, some of us have found out the wrong things to do and would like to pass on the information of what not to do that's all.



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Hezsus

07-14-2014 09:43:57
216.46.146.195



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 Re: TO-35 Starting and Running issues in reply to DrLoch, 07-14-2014 07:49:44  
Thank you, Much appreciated. It will be a few weeks before I can get to the tractor, but I will definately post my findings.



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DrLoch

07-18-2014 05:32:02
96.10.233.18



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 Re: TO-35 Starting and Running issues in reply to Hezsus, 07-14-2014 09:43:57  
I for one will look forward to your post since i will be tackling the same thing in the winter. FYI there is a person in Ireland that has a vast amount of knowledge about the 23C that helped me when I first got mine. When you get into and need questions answered he is a very good source.



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Hezsus

07-10-2014 04:57:06
216.46.146.195



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 Re: TO-35 Starting and Running issues in reply to Dieseltech, 07-09-2014 19:36:20  
I have a Gas tester that bolts in place of the spark plugs, I can test it from the glow plug hole if the fitting is right. my tester only goes to 300psi but that should give me an idea.
I tried starting this am to see about bubble in the rad but I couldnt get it going at all. just white/grey smoke and the odd puff of black. without heat it just puffs little bits of white. i"ll take a video of it tonight if i get a chance.

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Hezsus

07-11-2014 04:43:58
216.46.146.195



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 Re: TO-35 Starting and Running issues in reply to Hezsus, 07-10-2014 04:57:06  
Now my issues seemed to happen rather suddenly than something over time, here is some info.

The oil goes black in under a few hrs, this was bfore I had any problems. I noticed a little metallic on the dipstick now though (it was not nice at all before so could be from earlier.)
It never ran 'perfect' or even well for that matter, but it started right up and handled a 7' snowblower without issue.

I'm assuming I need a full rebuild. Would I be better getting a whole new tractor? I paid 3000CDN for this one with blower and trip loader 6 months ago and put alot of time and another 500$ into it. (axle seals, all new fluids, glow plugs, wiring, some paint, welding.ect What is the cost of a full rebuild if I were to do it myself?

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DrLoch

07-09-2014 16:51:35
98.26.157.221



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 Re: TO-35 Starting and Running issues in reply to Hezsus, 07-08-2014 07:24:50  
Another thought would be if the timing chain tensioner isn't functional anymore. The timing chain would become lose which would retard the injector pump timing as well. There is a procedure for checking that if want to go that far.



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DrLoch

07-08-2014 19:27:46
98.26.157.221



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 Re: TO-35 Starting and Running issues in reply to Hezsus, 07-08-2014 07:24:50  
I have a 1960 T035 with a 23C that had starting issues when I got it. Previous owner used starting fluid to start it, he didn't even know it had glow plugs.
Did this happen slowly over time or slowly over time? Almost sounds like a head gasket leak. Are you losing any
coolant? When you do get it running remove the rad
cap and look at the coolant, is it bubbling? I
agree with Diesltech you need to do a compression
test. I believe my glow plugs had a M14 X 1.25 mm
thread which is a a standard spark plug size.
compression check and rad bubble check will answer.
most questions.
This post was edited by DrLoch at 19:37:06 07/08/14.

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Dieseltech

07-08-2014 19:18:01
199.16.223.2



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 Re: TO-35 Starting and Running issues in reply to Hezsus, 07-08-2014 07:24:50  
A compression test would be a good idea, I have a Snap On set with the adaptors for the glow plugs, but not sure what thread size 23C late head has. My 1958 23C just has the intake thermostart. Mine had lots of blow by when I got years ago and needed overhauled. Previous owner used lots of ether, breaking ring lands and rings.



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Steve@Advance

07-08-2014 18:12:43
107.203.134.67



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 Re: TO-35 Starting and Running issues in reply to Hezsus, 07-08-2014 07:24:50  
Air cleaner would be a good start, disconnect the cleaner from the intake just for a test.

Easy enough to test the lift pump, could cause the hard start but not the black smoke.

Sounds like it could be leaking injectors. The leaking seals that were replaced... Did that involve opening the pump and lines? Any possibility something got in the pump or lines and is now in the injectors? Might take them off and get them tested and set.

And if the injectors are dumping fuel, the oil could be contaminated, explaining the white smoke from the breather.

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miner09

07-08-2014 09:15:25
70.196.12.161



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 Re: TO-35 Starting and Running issues in reply to Hezsus, 07-08-2014 07:24:50  
Have you checked the air filter. It may need to be cleaned. Wash unit out. We had a cat dozer that had similar problem and it was the filter. Just wasn't getting right amount air to start and run.



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