Harry Fergusons thoughts on the FE 35

Jason S.

Well-known Member
After reading his biography I learned that Massey in trying to add to the prestige of the FE 35, sent one to Harry to use on his estate. The first thing he did was tweak the steering and said "I don't think much of that." Then he went around the tractor poking and peering at everything then finally drove it with his ear turned to it listening. Finally he said " Well, apart from the steering, the transmission, the hydraulics, and the appearance, I don't suppose it's a bad tractor."
 
Sounds like the man needed a pint or 3 to loosen up a little...
I guess from his letters in an article in a tractor mag- antique power? a few years ago, he would have rather made nothing beyond TEA/TO30's into the 1970's... umph, talk about being left in the dust!
And I wonder what he'd think about my Ford axles??? 4 pints then...
 
Massey chose the 35 design instead of the TO60 tractor Harrys team was developing so I don't think he was going to say anything good about the 35, like it or not!

Dan
 
I had always heard Henry Ford was a unpleasant person and thought that Harry Ferguson was taken advantage of on the handshake deal they had. After some reading on the 2 Mr Ford could be a pain in the rear and not the most popular man in Michigan but I think Mr Fergusons was the less likeable of the 2.If what you have posted is correct it would show who the real crank was.
 
My fe standard gas is my favorite although parts are hard to come by. No steering problems and the govenor with the counter weights instead of ball bearings seem to work better.I hear they are interchangeable.
 
The book I read was written from interviews with Harry's daughter Betty,eyewitness accounts from people that worked for him, and from Harrys own paperwork in his library at his home. There was more than 150 boxes of papers that he kept with his notes and etc... I can see Harrys point of view on the FE 35. Harry wanted to build a simple,reliable,affordable tractor that even the most uneducated man,woman or child anywhere in the world could operate. Lets face it...how many people do you know that do not understand the difference between the draft control lever and the position control lever almost 60 years later? They took the TE-20 tractor into the bush in africa and taught the natives to farm their land. From all accounts I have read the TE-60 tractor was far superior to the the FE-35 or the TO-35. Politics played a lot into why the TE-60 was never put into production.
 
Now you got me feeling guilty for chiming in! First, the Ford thing, hey, Henry was giving up the tractor line in the late 20's, with the commodities crisis a couple years before the Wall Street crash. Then he and Harry were 'kindred spirits'? Both Irish, both about the same generation, same train of thought for their technology and business practices, Ford wanted to make simple transportation for farmers, Harry wanted to stick to simple equipment for farmers.
Henry's mind was already going years before the war, considering to kill the tractor line once again, then he died. Henry Ford 2nd wasn't his grandfather. Nothing in common with Harry, and if he could make a dollar a day staying in the ag market, they would. Trying to kill HF Ltd was just part of doing business.
Now Harry, born in a time of oxen and donkey carts, dismal news reports of fighting Zulu spears and fuzzy wussies with a single shot Martini was current events- he lived to see the space age- and machines so complicated they were time consuming and expensive to produce and repair.
And there were still 'his generation' still farming without the need for live pto, hydraulics, etc.(JD guys?) And an 'immerging market'? 3rd world? That would rather have that sort of simplicity, and couldn't afford anything more hi tech than a 30 anyway... and he was now in his late 70's? Back then most people died in their 60's, if he lost his marbles like his old friend Henry, he would be seen as a hero by all!!
 
See Jason the problem with you folks on that side of the Pond is you do not understand our Northern Irish sarcasm! I would probably have said the same if they had not built the tractor my team had spent so many man hours developing, and Massey did indicate in the original almalgamation agreement to built the TE60(LTX). But I will say one thing.....The tractor that the joint team designed and built (TO,TE.MF35)has proved over the past 60 odd years to have been the better choice. Not only for it's longevity , but it set a benchmark in tractor design, where the original basic tractor could be adapted with the fitment of a different axle, or engine or whatever to turn it into another tractor model....The first real case was the F-40 and then the 65.....Even the 300 and 4300 series tractor followed this same design of unit construction.
Both men were cranky, but that comes with intelligent minds....hey just look at Tony as an example!
Sam
 
...................cough........cough...... well, I guess I'll take that as a complement from Sam... trouble is... until just now.. I never heard of a TO60... any links? Pictures? Was it powered by atoms? Steer itself? Like the Ford Edsel was suppose to be? did it have a nuclear snow melting device coming out of the grill? If so, I'll take two...
 
Here ya go, Tony The final design mock-up.....
Early prototypes had the same bonnet/hood as the TE/TO 20 only on steroids!
Sam
a137908.jpg
 
Yup, today was the first I'd heard of that one too. Are there any of the prototypes still around? What was so different about it?
 
Hummmmm.... I might have enough bits and pieces left over from other tractors projects to make one of those.... looks like a low rider 65 with a squished grill.... what color was it? Or should I say 'what do you want me to paint it'?
 
What color was it.........that's funny, as if that really matters Tony! :lol:
Hey, did you happen to buy me that 204 rear end for Christmas? It might not fit under the tree in the house but I've got a really nice balsam out in the yard I can decorate for the occasion.
 
I can't say the 35 was the better choice. We never saw the TE-60 in action, or the earlier LTX prototypes that were built during his collaboration with Ford. All indications are that the TE-60 was far superior to anything that Massey had to offer but politics and the need to build a stronger tractor on the cheap prevailed. Don't get me wrong...I love the TO-35's and MF 35's. I do think the FE 35 is short on looks. I don't like the hood on them, but to each his own. The guy running Massey at the time James Duncan was told by Harry that he had no business running that company and a year later he was let go by the Argus Group who was the same company that bought Harry Fergusons interest in Massey and the same company who would reorganize Massey and bring us the 100 series. To me...Massey didn't get serious about a tractor until the 100 series. They got their act together. The 100 series was and still is one of the finest tractors of any brand ever built.
 
I copied this article. Although it says no Ford LTX prototypes were built that isn't true. I have seen pics and they were powered by Continental engines. This story doesn't tell much of the politics but at least now you know what happened to the tractors.


Developing the LTXAt the time of the takeover, Ferguson's Banner Lane engineers were developing a new tractor, the TE-60 or LTX (Large Tractor Experimental) and a few prototypes had undergone extensive testing. During the war years, Ferguson and Ford had done experimental work on a large Ferguson System tractor but never made a production prototype. The planned new tractor became one of the most important projects undertaken by the Banner Lane engineering department.
The Ferguson team designed the LTX engine. The chassis and drive train were designed to take up to 100 hp, but the first models were to be in the 45 to 60 hp range. In 1949, the tractor and a range of implements were tested at the Hyatt family farm near the Warwickshire village of Ufton in England. It is believed that six prototypes were tested at the farm. One of the six was left there and used until about 1970, when it suffered mechanical problems. The farmer contacted Massey Ferguson at Banner Lane about his "Big Fergie." Company officials are reputed to have collected the tractor, taken it to Banner Lane and subsequently cut it up.
The LTX was at an advanced stage when, on May 13, 1953, Ferguson's British distributors received a letter requesting orders for the new 48 hp tractors for delivery in spring 1954. Ferguson expected the tractor to go into production, but senior management decided the tractor was unsuited to the American market because they could not produce a row-crop version. Instead, the decision was made to improve the American-designed TO-35 in lieu of producing the LTX. In 1954, the project was abandoned and Massey Ferguson is said to have destroyed all records, parts and prototypes (with the exception of the Ufton tractor).
Morale suffered at Banner Lane, where many Ferguson engineers felt let down and suspected a bias toward Massey-Harris engineering and products. Parallel dealer networks continued to operate independently, and pricing of Banner Lane tractors was a contentious issue. Sir John Black's Standard Motor Co. owed much of its post-war prosperity to the tractor business. After negotiations with Ferguson and Massey-Harris's Canadian management, Black agreed to a £20 ($56 U.S.) reduction to tractor manufacturing costs and signed a contract to manufacture tractors for another 12 years. 
Instead of reducing the tractor price, however, Duncan reinvested the savings into the company. This infuriated Ferguson, who wanted it passed on to farmers. Ferguson had believed his price reducing system would be adopted as company policy when the companies merged.
 
There are supposed to be a couple of the LTX around, they just look like a big TE20 or TO30 but have bigger wheels on the back 11x32 and the hood height is higher. The Engine was one made by Standard Motors and was similar to the 35 Diesel, but there were a few versions of this as there were a few different horsepower's. The grip in the rear wheels was supposed to be excellent and with the big engines could rip the tread bars off the tires, so they had to obtain some special types. Hydraulics had Draft and Position control but all done through one lever...John(UK)
 
Did the control lever look like the one on the Standard prototype tractor that they built when they thought Massey would no longer need them after they bought out Ferguson? It was what I would call a gated control lever. It had one lever and the slots were H shaped. I assume one side was draft and the other side was position control.
 
No it was nothing like the Standard tractor as this was done by Harry Ferguson Ltd, the Standard Tractor was made by the Standard Motor Co, so it was two different design teams that did them. On the LTX (TE60)it had another small lever that was used to switch from one system to the other (position to Draft) although I never saw it close up, it must have been similar to the Ford arrangement, they used a small lever on the Side of the Top Cover. It had a 3 cylinder hydraulic Pump at 2500psi. It also had Double-acting sensing for the Draft control similar to the 35 series. There was also a sensitivity control which I suppose is similar to the Response on the 35 series. The hydraulics could lift a Ton on the end off the lower links arms which was a big improvement. It had 2 PTO shafts, 1 is standard speed and one ran at engine speed. An 11" Dual plate Clutch giving independent PTO was used The Engine was similar to the TEF to look at...John(UK).
 
Just been searching here on my computer for some old files on that LTX and I found a picture of it ready to go into production. The final Hood was not unlike the one used on the FE35 later. The earlier pictures showed it with a TE20 type Hood, these were what were used to disguise the tractors on test, they built 8 tractors for test and they used different Engines of 2/3/4/5/6 & cylinders The transmission was built to take up to 100hp and it was that one that ripped the tread Bars from the tires on dry soil.John(UK)
 
So what is your opinion? Did Massey drop the ball on not putting a well designed tractor into production and going with the 35 and all of its variants?
 
My thoughts are that HF made a big mistake in selling to MH. I know he was getting older and he wasn't in good health, but he did make some mistakes. like trying to cut the price of the tractors all the time, this left little or no money for development and it was desperately needed. I think from what I have seen and heard about the LTX it would have taken a lot of beating, but who can deny that the 40/50/35/65 tractors haven't been successful. MH didn't have much of a pedigree with sophisticated hydraulics, if it had a draw-bar stuck on the back they were OK, but it took Ferguson to change all that and I would like to think that the LTX would have made a bigger difference. I know it would have done for us here in the UK but I also know that it would not have been as suitable for the USA where they liked these tricycle type tractor at that time and the LTX had not been designed with that in mind. But when you look at the 35 neither was that, they just changed the front casting and attached the steering to that, why they couldn't have done that with the LTX is anyone's guess, but I think that there was a lot of political in-fighting in MH at that time and Herman Klemm did not get along with HF (well HF was difficult at the best of times) and Klemm being a MH man finally won over the design. but for years it was said here in Coventry that the LTX would have knocked the socks off the 35. The LTX was capable of pulling up to 5 furrows so it was not a plaything. Mainly the reason that MH gave was that it would cost too much to re-tool Detroit for production of the new tractor, production in the UK would only happen at a later date, really MH did not have much cash and that had some bearing on it too.But I can't think of many parts that were carried over to the new tractor from the TE20/TO30 series so that was just a smoke screen really, they didn't like to think that the Coventry tractor could be better.
If the LTX had been anything like the TE20, it would have licked the opposition easily. When all the drawings and specs for the new tractor were destroyed on the orders of MH, that makes me think things, fortunately I got my specs before that was done so they did not get their sticky
little fingers on it. Still no use crying over it now...John(UK) [email protected]
 

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