6v generator/ammeter question - Super A

Claven2

Member
I got the Super A started today for the first time since I drove it off the float over a month ago, it's coming back together after my efforts to re-baseline the vehicle (maintenance-wise). It had sat in a barn 3 years before I got it, so I'm changing all fluids, most gaskets, plugs, dis cap, filters, etc.

All the fluids are now changed except the hydraulic fluid. I've not done that yet because I need to figure out changing the MacGyver-ed accessory hydraulic couplers to a proper set of breakaways, but more on that in another thread.

While it was started, the oil gauge worked OK and pressure stayed in the middle, maybe slightly to the higher side of dead centre. Should be good enough.

The battery is a new 6V unit that I had trickle charged before installing. It was reading 6.3V when I installed it (voltmeter).

The battery ran the starter motor just fine and the tractor started right up, no sweat.

so here's the question:

When the tractor is OFF and I turn the light switch ON to either Dim or Bright (I have the ODB switch), the ammeter moved over to the "CHARGE" side of the gauge, which seems odd since the generator is not running.

When I turn the tractor ON, the needle goes way over to the "DISCHARGE" side. Turning on a light makes it slightly less into the "discharge" range, but still on the discharge side.

I only ran the machine for about 10 minutes to let it warm up and to re-locate it into the barn where I will continue to work on it for a couple more weeks. I have a lot of fittings left to grease, more paint, new belts, etc.

This seems opposite of how I thought the ammeter worked. I thought it went into "discharge" when the generator was not sending juice back to the battery and "charge" when the generator was sending power back to charge the cells.

Am I missing something on how this works? Or is my ammeter wired wrong? The ammeter looks to have original wiring and is not a replacement. It's an old 1950's ammeter, probably the original one.

Is it possible the generator is not working properly?
 
If you changed Polarity when you installed the new battery and got it opposite for the Original Positive Ground

THE AMMETER WOULD REGISTER BASS ACKWARDS

If its wired correct turning the lights on not running should make it swing to - Discharge.

If the charging system is working the battery should read 6.3 volts if its good and full charged, but after start up the battery voltage should rise to at least 6.5 to near 7 subject to RPM and genny and belt condition

If you swap ammeter leads that will make it register correct

NOTE if you swapped battery polarity and didn't correctly re polarize the genny for the new polarity, you may or perhaps not caused some damage RE POLARIZE IT CORRECTLY BEFORE YOU START IT AGAIN, ALL MAY BE OKAY !!!!!!!!!!!!!

If its a battery powered coil distributor ignition instead of a magneto, swapped polarity would mean you need to reverse coil leads.

IF YOU CHANGE IT BACK TO THE CORRECT POLARITY THE AMMETER SHOULD WORK CORRECT AND RE POLARIZE THE GENNY AND YOU MAY BE OKAY AND NO COIL CHANGES WOUDL BE REQUIRED

John T
 
(quoted from post at 20:49:00 08/30/15) You do have positive ground? That is what will make the ammeter show reverse flow with the lights only.

Yes, I have the black + terminal grounded to the frame.
 
(quoted from post at 20:41:34 08/30/15) If you changed Polarity when you installed the new battery and got it opposite for the Original Positive Ground

THE AMMETER WOULD REGISTER BASS ACKWARDS

If its wired correct turning the lights on not running should make it swing to - Discharge.

If the charging system is working the battery should read 6.3 volts if its good and full charged, but after start up the battery voltage should rise to at least 6.5 to near 7 subject to RPM and genny and belt condition

If you swap ammeter leads that will make it register correct

NOTE if you swapped battery polarity and didn't correctly re polarize the genny for the new polarity, you may or perhaps not caused some damage RE POLARIZE IT CORRECTLY BEFORE YOU START IT AGAIN, ALL MAY BE OKAY !!!!!!!!!!!!!

If its a battery powered coil distributor ignition instead of a magneto, swapped polarity would mean you need to reverse coil leads.

IF YOU CHANGE IT BACK TO THE CORRECT POLARITY THE AMMETER SHOULD WORK CORRECT AND RE POLARIZE THE GENNY AND YOU MAY BE OKAY AND NO COIL CHANGES WOUDL BE REQUIRED

John T

I definitely have it set to positive ground. I'm sure of it. I have the black + terminal grounded and the red - terminal going to the starter.

BUT, the tractor has been sitting for over a month with NO BATTERY installed, so I'm thinking the generator lost polarity altogether. I forgot to re-polarize it before starting the tractor. I won't get back to the farm until next weekend, but will re-polarize it before starting next time to see if that helps (?)

Here are the only photos I have right now, the tractor is an hour away until next week.

IMG_0223_zps3fd7qdhs.jpg

IMG_0219_zpsxzukxyod.jpg


I believe it's a coil distributor ignition.
 
(quoted from post at 21:44:36 08/30/15) Yes when you plorize it that should solve the problem

Thanks! As an aside, I'm SO GLAD I swapped to a rebuilt Zenith carb and ditched my carter. Tractor now purrs at low idle. With the carter, it would sputter out lower than 1/3 throttle.
 
A couple of things here. I read in your answer to John T that you have the black + terminal to ground and red - to starter. Well, normally, on a battery, the red terminal is the + terminal so I would suggest you double check that. No way polarizing generator will make any difference as to which way ammeter reads when engine is not running. If it reads to charge side, either battery is installed wrong or someone had changed ammeter wires at some time and it is wired wrong. The other thing here, polarizing. Once you start the engine , if the generator starts to charge and closes the cutout relay, bang,(I should say flash) the battery will overcome the generator , arc the points of cutout , and it will be polarized weather you did it or not. That is why we polarize, so the battery and generator are on the same page so to speak, and not fight each other when cutout closes it's points. A volt meter will quickly tell you if you are + or - grounded.
 
(quoted from post at 22:19:36 08/30/15) A couple of things here. I read in your answer to John T that you have the black + terminal to ground and red - to starter. Well, normally, on a battery, the red terminal is the + terminal so I would suggest you double check that. No way polarizing generator will make any difference as to which way ammeter reads when engine is not running. If it reads to charge side, either battery is installed wrong or someone had changed ammeter wires at some time and it is wired wrong. The other thing here, polarizing. Once you start the engine , if the generator starts to charge and closes the cutout relay, bang,(I should say flash) the battery will overcome the generator , arc the points of cutout , and it will be polarized weather you did it or not. That is why we polarize, so the battery and generator are on the same page so to speak, and not fight each other when cutout closes it's points. A volt meter will quickly tell you if you are + or - grounded.

I'm sure I oriented the battery right, but I will double-check it when I go out on Saturday. What is the best way to check with my voltmeter?

I could just read the + or - on the plastic, but I want to be dead sure.
 
Look carefully at the battery top. It will have a Big Plus mark at the positive terminal, and a Negative mark on the negative terminal. normally on cars and tractors and things that go red is positive and black negative. (this standardization is universal) if your battery is connected as you stated above, the Bat may be in backwards. If it is backwards, you have options. If as John indicates the voltage at 34 throttle is about 7, you can leave it as is and reverse the connections (all of thm) at the amp meter, and it will be fine and dandy. But it will be negative ground, with the idea that others may believe it is as original, and hook up things wrong is jumping the tractor. If you reverse the amp gauge leads make sure the coil is wired from the negative terminal to the distributor.
If you reverse the battery, before starting in, use a jumper to touch the Bat terminal on the regulator to the Arm terminal on the regulator. This repolarizes the gen to positive ground, Like it came from the factory. Jim
 
You state "I have the black + terminal grounded and the red - terminal going to the starter"

SOUNDS LIKE YOU HAVE IT NEGATIVE GROUND Black usually indicates NEG while Red is POS. However the big + and - battery labels shouldn't be telling a lie either. Check it out because the ammeter symptoms you describe sounds like battery is bass ackwards. Re Polarize BEFORE starting.

John T
 
Just put voltmeter on battery terminals and it will tell you which terminal is plus or minus. A analog meter will swing wrong way if hooked wrong, a digital meter will show a minus sign if hooked wrong. You just have to make sure your leads on meter are on properly also.
 
(quoted from post at 13:40:17 08/31/15) Just put voltmeter on battery terminals and it will tell you which terminal is plus or minus. A analog meter will swing wrong way if hooked wrong, a digital meter will show a minus sign if hooked wrong. You just have to make sure your leads on meter are on properly also.

Well, damn. I did have it in backwards. I guess my recollection is not as good as it once was!

The other issue is the battery was full up when installed last weekend, today it was pretty near dead. 2% charge and 1.9V reading on the battery charger. The battery is new and was checked good at the dealer when I bought it about 6 weeks ago. It was installed first time last weekend reading 6.3v.

YIKES.

So if I installed it backwards, is it possible I exposed the battery to something downstream of the on/off switch that caused it to drain completely in a week? Or is something else going on here?

I did not expect it to get flat from being reversed. I have it on the charger now to top it back up and check that it's still a good battery (i.e. ensure it's not defective or does not have a dead cell).
 
Had the battery on the charger all night, brought it out, re-polarized the tractor positive ground and started it up. That parts works well now, but when I measure voltage with everything "OFF" between the negative terminal and the negative lead, I'm getting 2.5v draw, so something downstream is not right.

I checked the on/off switch and it seems to be working. When I turn it "ON" voltage draw jumps to 6v. In "OFF", it drops back down to 2.5v.

The light switch also is working in that when I put it "ON" the voltage draw jumps up and lights come on, when I turn it "OFF", drops back to 2.5v draw.

I started the tractor and measured across the A and B terminals on the generator - it was only putting out 13mV, so I'm assuming that is a problem.

When running the tractor battery voltage dropped to 5.9v (it's at 6.3V when physically disconnected).

The voltage regulator is a mess, REALLY oily and it looks to have been worked on before by someone. The ground cable coming out of the back, for example, is not original. I suspect it is not working well.

So I'm thinking I may need a new voltage regulator, and probably also a generator rebuild - what do you guys think?
 

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