New head gasket is leaking

Today I just replaced the head gasket in my 1946 model A and it is already has a couple of external coolant seepages. The head has been milled flat, torqued all the nuts evenly to 80 Lbs. Cleaned the block deck and head surface. Used a die to chase the studs and replaced all the head nuts with new ones. I torqued the head nuts in four steps too. I installed the gasket dry without sealant as I have had trouble with gasket sealants.

Now I have not run the tractor yet or retorqued the head. Is it common for new head gaskets to seep until after a heat cycle and retorque? I have read that with old engines it can take 3 or 4 retorques to fully seal them up and completely stop seeps. This is the third time I have replaced the head gasket on this tractor in 5 years. The other two times I used gasket sealant and hoped to have better success without it this time around.
 
You've really had some bad luck!

Did you use CopperCoat on the gasket?

Hopefully a re-torque or two will make it seal.
 
(quoted from post at 23:02:23 04/18/15) You've really had some bad luck!

Did you use CopperCoat on the gasket?

Hopefully a re-torque or two will make it seal.

The past two times I did use copper coat. Some of the other members here said they have had sealing problems with using copper coat which is why I didn't use any sealer this time around.

Spent all day working on it and really disappointed in seeing seepage. Maybe a PO did something weird to it? I can tell somebody had taken the head off before I did.
 

Re-torque should help, but you really should use sealant on those head gaskets. Most I have seen have printed right on the gasket "sealer and re-torque required".
 
The best thing I've ever found for those troublesome gaskets is three coats of aluminum paint. Works every time.

Allan
 
I always use sealer , I also go more than 80 ft lbs on the head. Try bumping it up to 90-95 ft lbs on the retorque and see if it stops.
 
Need to use sealer for the 113 and 123 head gaskets. The installation instructions that came with the gasket set should have stated this. Copper coat or aluminum paint. I prefer the paint. You will need to pull the head, clean everything up and reinstall with a new gasket with plenty of sealer.
 
try running till warm retorque, if it leaks remove head and apply a sealer or paint, old gasket can be reused if it isn't damaged , using a sealer on the gasket even though it was installed previously will work on those engines btdt with no problems
 
that is normal, lots of gaskets have the sealant built right into them. you need to run the tractor to operating temp even if you have to cover the rad. then retorque head and readjust valves. that should seal her up.
 
(quoted from post at 05:52:15 04/19/15) Today I just replaced the head gasket in my 1946 model A and it is already has a couple of external coolant seepages. The head has been milled flat, torqued all the nuts evenly to 80 Lbs. Cleaned the block deck and head surface. Used a die to chase the studs and replaced all the head nuts with new ones. I torqued the head nuts in four steps too. I installed the gasket dry without sealant as I have had trouble with gasket sealants.

Now I have not run the tractor yet or retorqued the head. Is it common for new head gaskets to seep until after a heat cycle and retorque? I have read that with old engines it can take 3 or 4 retorques to fully seal them up and completely stop seeps. This is the third time I have replaced the head gasket on this tractor in 5 years. The other two times I used gasket sealant and hoped to have better success without it this time around.
Id have to agree with cornerpost you may have a warped block surface I have a case SC with the head off right now the block is warped more than the head. If that is the case short of having the block milled.,You may be able to get a thicker head gasket to work mind you Ive never tried it cant even find a thicker one for mine. I will probably have my block milled however in doing that the mill steps for the sleeves will also have to be reworked I really don't need the added expense. Hopefully you can run it and continue to retorque it till it stops
Good luck Byron
 
Well if ya used a Fel Pro gskt. i have seen this more then once and myself i will not use Fel Pro . I have had far better luck with Victor and a coat of copper coat . Also like others have said about the deck of the block , they can be warped and usually are to some degree . Myself when doing a out of chassis rebuild both the head and block are done . I even go as far as a line bore on the mains , notice i said line BORE not a line hone Honing not only takes cap metrial but the same amount out of the block. I prefer only dusting the block side and remove from the caps this way it keeps the crank gear from setting to deep into the cam gear . when you deck the block you have to recut the contour bores and this is a good thing as now you have everything setting good and it also ups the compression a bit .
 
(quoted from post at 08:44:58 04/19/15) Well if ya used a Fel Pro gskt. i have seen this more then once and myself i will not use Fel Pro . I have had far better luck with Victor and a coat of copper coat . Also like others have said about the deck of the block , they can be warped and usually are to some degree . Myself when doing a out of chassis rebuild both the head and block are done . I even go as far as a line bore on the mains , notice i said line BORE not a line hone Honing not only takes cap metrial but the same amount out of the block. I prefer only dusting the block side and remove from the caps this way it keeps the crank gear from setting to deep into the cam gear . when you deck the block you have to recut the contour bores and this is a good thing as now you have everything setting good and it also ups the compression a bit .

I have tried both Victor and Fel-Pro. I changed the head gasket with the engine sill on the tractor. Other than head gasket sealing issues the motor runs fine. Besides a warped block deck, could stretched head studs cause sealing problems too?
 
As the Vet recommends, I also use copper coat in a single full coverage spray on both sides. I like to lay the gasket on cardboard and spray one side evenly but completely. then put roofing nails through the cardboard and lay the near dry gasket on top of the points to coat the other side, Once coated, it is used immediately. Warmed and torqued the second time right away.
In the current situation, I would retorque right now without warming. loosen each nut a tiny bit to break its position, then taking it to torque. Then start and run to warm and retorque. If it still weeps, I would use a product from Subaru (over the parts counter) that is a required additive to seal a series of Subaru engines from the 2000 to 20005 era. It works and does not cause grief in the system. Jim
 

I retorqued it to 95 lbs, and started her up and let it run for 40 minutes. While it was warming up I noticed the weeping seemed to stop or slow down a good bit. Will try retorquing it again after it cools off some.

Had been thinking about using stop leak. Ford and Volvo dump stop leak into their cars on the production line so it can't be junk.
 
I am surprised no one had mentioned the sleeves. How far are they protruding above the block. According to my manual they shouldn't protrude above the block more than .004 - .007". I
have a Super C that I think someone machined the deck and didn't machine the sleeve seat. They protruded over .010" and the head gasket definitely leaked.
 
Ah NO you do NOT let them cool down then retorque , you DO IT HOT and always recheck after your done as you will find that the bolts-nuts in the center area will be a little loose and will need done over . NOW IF the deck of the block is more then say .003-5 out or IF your sleeves are not with in spec.'s your going to have problems . For the guys like myself Owen and Pete that made or make our living working on tractors trucks and equipment we can not afford problems and over the years when we get into a job we have to be sure of what caused the problem first off and what is needed done to correct that problem . since the first time we fix it it is on your dime and IF we mess up then it is on our dime . . Now the next BIG thing is having a really good torque wrench and one that is in calibration . Then the next is knowing how to use it correctly as i have seen guys that do not know how to torque correctly . My biggest pet peeve is guys that lung on the torque wrench and not PULL with a steady firm pull . Having the threads chased on the stud or bolt and also the threads in the block chased with a bottoming tap that is sharp . Making sure that they will screw down into the threads smoothly then lubing lightly . If one nut does not go on a stud and spin freely down then try another and figure out where it will go on easy . In my time i have seen guys install heads in a dealer ship with out using a torque wrench just run them down with and impact and call it good .
 

I retorqued it while the head was still warm. I torque with a smooth pull. I also replaced a head gasket on my Chevy V8, and it sealed right without sealer or retorque, lots of smog and computer stuff in the way on that motor preventing retorque.

Sadly the Farmall ' s head gasket is still leaking after the retorque. Other than a warped block, could faulty head studs cause sealing problems? Should I try one more time with a new gasket and replace the studs? I do not have a indoor or covered space to leave the engine apart for very long or for rebuilding it. I could swap the motor if I have to.

I do not know much about the tractors history. I can tell somebody else has had the head off before me. Don't know if the block has ever been decked or resleeved. Doesn't seem like it has been.

Other than head gasket sealing issues, the motor runs like a top. Good oil pressure, no knocks, no oil burning, good compression. It would be a shame to rebuild or replace this engine because of a warped deck.
 
I would take a few pictures of the leak areas with the head on then remove the head and take pictures of the head and the block without cleaning it up first from several angles The whole block and head and then each cylinder and its surrounding area. Next clean the areas and take final pictures. The pictures you take are Important because they can be blown up so the experts can help you. I was able to find 2 cracks in the block and the pressure plate sleeve that may have gone undetected otherwise. I am not a tractor expert but learned the value of pictures as an aircraft mechanic and Inspector for 33 years every aircraft is photographed in suspect areas and then the photos are blown up and examined on computer for any structural damage. Check the head and block with a straight edge and feeler gauges in all directions for any warped areas, then as Rodger46 previously noted measure the height of the sleeve flanges all of them pay particular attention to the sleeves or any deep gouges or potential cracks in the area of the leaks. document & post your findings (measurements) along with the pictures. Someone will be along to help you interpret the pictures and your findings. Now before anyone says it I know its not an aircraft but to not use all the tools available and guessing what the problem is would not likely help this gentleman . Please be sure to answer any questions or provide any data they ask of you. Lets hope its just an oversight that can be repaired without fanfare. I posted some examples of my engine
Good luck Byron
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(quoted from post at 03:49:06 04/20/15) I would take a few pictures of the leak areas with the head on then remove the head and take pictures of the head and the block without cleaning it up first from several angles The whole block and head and then each cylinder and its surrounding area. Next clean the areas and take final pictures. The pictures you take are Important because they can be blown up so the experts can help you. I was able to find 2 cracks in the block and the pressure plate sleeve that may have gone undetected otherwise. I am not a tractor expert but learned the value of pictures as an aircraft mechanic and Inspector for 33 years every aircraft is photographed in suspect areas and then the photos are blown up and examined on computer for any structural damage. Check the head and block with a straight edge and feeler gauges in all directions for any warped areas, then as Rodger46 previously noted measure the height of the sleeve flanges all of them pay particular attention to the sleeves or any deep gouges or potential cracks in the area of the leaks. document & post your findings (measurements) along with the pictures. Someone will be along to help you interpret the pictures and your findings. Now before anyone says it I know its not an aircraft but to not use all the tools available and guessing what the problem is would not likely help this gentleman . Please be sure to answer any questions or provide any data they ask of you. Lets hope its just an oversight that can be repaired without fanfare. I posted some examples of my engine
Good luck Byron
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Thank you for the detailed reply. I am a little behind the times and don't own a digital camera to take pictures. All the seeps I see are between the bottom of the head gasket and the block. Probably a sign the block is warped?

If it is warped I just don't have the time or money to rebuild the motor and mill it. It would be cheaper just to sell the tractor as a project and buy another tractor in better condition. Rebuilt replacement C113s cost more than complete running used tractors, it is just very frustrating to have this problem with no good choice.
 
Janicholson suggested the use of the Subaru coolant additive
I would use a product from Subaru (over the parts counter) that is a required additive to seal a series of Subaru engines from the 2000 to 20005 era. It works and does not cause grief in the system. Jim

I have a Subaru 2000 model and have used this it is designed for head gasket leaks It requires 1 bottle but I used up to 2 in my truck. I understand the money issues I'm in the same boat Before you give up on what has been a good tractor for you maybe someone here can tell you if they make a thicker gasket And if your willing to try another attempt. It don't take an expert to see were it has been leaking. If you do remove the head again run it first so you can see were its leaking from and follow the previous instructions. I did not want to make it seem complex. Did you torque it in the correct sequence? If it is seeping a little and not leaking its not going to hurt a thing to run it as is use the additive with a coolant but for it to work you have to run the tractor it may take a little a couple days to stop the leak.. Subaru makes a special radiator coolant as well, the coolant is pricey and only sold at the dealership but the additive is not as bad. They sell the additive on line. I'm not sure I would buy it online but you can go to any Subaru dealership and get it . It is a small 4OZ bottle. Subaru Engine Coolant Additive (Cooling System Conditioner) If you decide to use it shake it well before you add it to the radiator. I'm only suggesting this as a last resort. You can thank Janicholson If it works for you.
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I would like to thank everybody who has replied to this problem. The seeps are on both sides of the engine. A few on the manifold side and a few on the sparkplug side. Seems like the manifold side is leaking worst of the two sides.

I will try to get some Subaru stop leak and see if that works. If that fails I will try changing the head gasket one more time with copper sealer and new studs and nuts. I don't have a machinist edge to check the deck but I do have a caliper to check how much the sleeves stick up. If new studs fails or the sleeves measure off, it would be time for more drastic plans.
 
1946 model A Farmall Right? Does the radiator cap you have say water on top? Has It ever overheated? Does it have a water pump? Is there a thermostat? I'm thinking this tractor is not a pressurized system. Someone here should know. Maybe the experts can chime in.
 
(quoted from post at 21:01:43 04/20/15) 1946 model A Farmall Right? Does the radiator cap you have say water on top? Has It ever overheated? Does it have a water pump? Is there a thermostat? I'm thinking this tractor is not a pressurized system. Someone here should know. Maybe the experts can chime in.

It is a 46 with thermo, siphon, no water pump or t-stat. It has a cap marked water. It has never overheated while I owned it, however a PO could have overheated it in the past? When I had the head milled the shop said it was warped.

Are later As, with pressurized cooling systems less prone to warping?
 
Here's what I'm thinking and I know it may be radical but if your going to junk the tractor you got nothing to lose. If its not a pressurized system and you have no overheat problems you should have no problem sealing the leaks off. If you have tried the additive and changed the head gasket again try some J-b weld for steel it Has a 3600 PSI rating and a 500 degree tolerance for heat.I have used this to fix a radiator on an SC that was severely corroded. I think If you sand the area real good around the gasket top and bottom or use a small grinder to get down to the metal blow some air around it and clean with some brake cleaner wipe with a clean cloth then tape off a 3/8 inch area at least 1/8 inch on top and bottom apply it liberally and smooth out maybe 0.50 thick remove the tape and wait a minimum of 24 hours before you start it.Also when or IF you have to put coolant in make sure you mix it good 50 50 with water BEFORE you put it in. I doubt that there is enough pressure there to even blow out a typical automotive sealant. I really think you can fix this tractor so you can at least use it with a minimum amount of expense. who cares if it still has coolant under the head gasket it will probably out last me and you both. I really don't know if later model are less prone to warping I was simply asking because of the additional pressure.
Good luck with it Byron
 
(quoted from post at 05:18:55 04/21/15)
(quoted from post at 21:01:43 04/20/15) 1946 model A Farmall Right? Does the radiator cap you have say water on top? Has It ever overheated? Does it have a water pump? Is there a thermostat? I'm thinking this tractor is not a pressurized system. Someone here should know. Maybe the experts can chime in.

It is a 46 with thermo, siphon, no water pump or t-stat. It has a cap marked water. It has never overheated while I owned it, however a PO could have overheated it in the past? When I had the head milled the shop said it was warped.

Are later As, with pressurized cooling systems less prone to warping?
I wanted to add you can use a kite string to check the deck by pulling it tight across the head and looking for light under it.
 

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