Short lived products

fastfarmall

Well-known Member
How does the chinese or others, make such poor quality products, like ball brgs, I work for the neighbor's, they have two Wil- Rich brand crumblers, One is 10 yrs old USA brgs, never had one fail , the other is 3 or 4 yrs old Made in China, brgs,some will only go 3-4 days. Do they put dirt in the grease so they wont last or are the balls, out of round. Does anybody really know or want to guess how they can be that inferior!
 
I have had a few of these Chinese replacements and NEVER ever had a good one . They have throw away products .
 
(quoted from post at 02:53:11 04/16/15) But, how do they do it?
The quality control is almost non-existent. As long as it looks like a bearing it is good enough for them. I am sure the quality of steel has a factor in the situation. Out-of-round balls also a good possibility. Their goal is to get numbers out the door as cheap as possible, not quality out the door.
 
I am going to have to disagree with the statements that the Chinese intentionally make junk. They make what the companies selling it in America ask for. If they ask for the cheapest possible product they get it. If they ask for a quality product, they get it.
 
I'm with John Cub Owner on this one. The Chinese are just as capable of making good products as we are and it depends on who is importing and setting the specs on this end. If the importer on this end is specifying to a price point rather than a quality point then that is what goes on the shelf. They run some huge constructions projects over there and I can guarantee they don't put up with down time any more than the rest of us.

Think of all the high end electronics that come out of China. Cramming all that stuff on a chip for a smart phone demands extreme precision and quality for it to work at all. They've also built nuclear weapons and put satellites into orbit.

There's a lot of small copycat shops over there that reverse engineer and steal designs. They are the ones that crank out most of the junk, making something that looks substantially like the original but without the material considerations or QC. The importers on this end are looking at what they can buy the cheapest by the container load and have the most margin. They sell a bunch of junk for a year or two and then close the doors.
 
Early ball bearings all came from Germany. Cars I have worked on from 1902 into the early teens usually have Timken bearings. They still have the plans for them all, but some can be very expensive. I dont know when they were first made here.

The problem with quality is us. The majority wants to buy the cheapest product, so thats what we get. An example, Napa' s "Echlin" branded ignition parts used to be the best in the business. Now they sell the same Chinese garbage as everyone else. It makes no sense for a company to stock items that wont sell, so they dont, and good items are not as common.
 
I'd guess the balls or the race (or both) have inconsistent surface hardening, soft spots, roughness, or ball size, and tolerance. The bearings are not built to last. They are built to sell.
 
(quoted from post at 04:39:06 04/16/15) I am going to have to disagree with the statements that the Chinese intentionally make junk. They make what the companies selling it in America ask for. If they ask for the cheapest possible product they get it. If they ask for a quality product, they get it.

That seems to be an epidemic in this country. A lot of people don't want to pony up for quality.
 
parts from the land of almost right are just that. their steel is inferior. the labor has been beaten down by communist rulers for generations and do not care. also the smog is so thick some days they probably can't see what they are making.
 
one big factor is wages the chinesse make none, that is to say well below the American standard, like equivilent $100
The air is hardly breathable, all toxic by-products go out the door and over the nearest bank or in to a hole. Very few safety for the workers type stuff. And look at their agribussiness- women poking rice shoots in mud after an oxen stomps it up a bit, their whole world view is a lot not like ours.
 
"Nobody wants to pay for quality," yet you squawk and scream bloody murder when you see the price of that USA-made bearing at a dealer, walk out in a huff, and buy the cheap Chinese bearing at Tractor Supply. Then you complain when the cheap bearing doesn't hold up.
 
Its difficult to find anything built In the U.S.A. I was looking for a lock for the back gate at ace hardware I could not find a single lock made in America?
 
I work in manufacturing, and it really does come down to the customers preference ; quality, or quantity, with the understanding that quantity usually = "cheaper", in a sense. Every manufacturer wants to hold their profit margin. Whether that customer is me or you, or Timken or GM, it depends on what they value.

Personally, if it is a non-critical, easy to replace bearing, I will use a cheaper one. If it is a super critical, hard to get to bearing, I usually pony up for the good bearing. If the cheap ones fails earlier than I would have thought, I have only myself to blame for making that call.

Most USA early 1900's machine shops/factories in this country has dirt or wood floors, and much of the machines/parts made in those shops where world - class. So unless you are making semi-conductors, you really don't need a fancy place - all depends on what your making, and who is making it, and what the values of the owner are.

As for the metallurgy - that is a world wide shame. We will not usually use any metals that do not come with certifications, and half of the those are not even close to what the certs call out. You can tell what is what by which mill in which country the metal came from. And it comes from everywhere. On really high end stuff, 3rd party verification/testing is done.

If it looks like a duck, it must be a duck, right?
 
I agree too. I have not been to China but know several people who have. Many of their
cities are pretty impressive and very modern. The rural areas vary. A good part of the
problem is who is setting the specifications. We get the same problem in this country,
particularly with stores like Walmart who will dictate lower specs to a manufacturer of a
well-known brand name so Walmart can sell the product cheaper. Some manufacturers have
resisted this and some have not. When was the last time you saw a car, etc. built even in
this country that looks like it was built extra stout like many of the older tractors were
[many of which are still running].
 
(quoted from post at 14:06:38 04/16/15) "Nobody wants to pay for quality," yet you squawk and scream bloody murder when you see the price of that USA-made bearing at a dealer, walk out in a huff, and buy the cheap Chinese bearing at Tractor Supply. Then you complain when the cheap bearing doesn't hold up.

People used to cry about poorly made American stuff. Now a lot of the things that were called poor quality U.S. made items are better than what gets shipped from China. People also need to remember that buying American made items support American manufacturing and it's workers. I wish NAFTA and the fair trade agreement could be repealed, so that the people of this country can be put back to work with good paying manufacturing jobs.
 
I had that choice the other day at my local farm parts store/weld shop, buying a bearing for my little 10 ft disk. They had to
order the bearing and the "off brand" was $22 and the Timken was $37. I ordered the Timken.

Now here's the deal: Will the bearing in that Timken box actually be made in the US? Several times I've bought Timken bearings
and they were made in Japan. Timken is a global company.

NTN is an old Japanese company that pre-dates WW2. They own Bower BCA. I bought a transmission bearing from the IH dealer for a
Super M that came in a Bower box and had Bower stamped all over it. Where did it come from? Some mower guards I bought from IH
were made in Korea.

Bought a part for a shredder at the J.D. house the other day that came from overseas too.

Sometimes it's hard to know where things come from these days. Years ago I worked in the machine shop of a factory that made
forklift masts (and some of their own forklifts too). The masts were made for Clark, Caterpillar, Daewoo and I can't remember
who all else. Before they went out the door they got the respective company's name plate. They were built to order for those
companies but the steel all came out of the same racks and the parts were all made by the same people on the same machines.
 
There are a lot of different bearings with the same dimensions. Look at a major bearing manufacture's catalog for the different load ratings, precision classes, seal options, costs, etc. within each size.

I'd be surprised if a manufacturer like Wil-Rich downsized their bearing requirements. Could a previous owner or the current owners have needed to replaced some bearings and used cheaper ones?

Your neighbor might be ahead to start using the better bearings in both machines.
 
Another major issue withnew bearings is the cheap grease they assembled them with. Much of it is like watery Vaseline. I always wash it out and replace out with a premium grease, especially with sealed bearings.
 
Interesting to read your thoughts on metal manufacturing. I've been in purchasing for over 30 years, mostly buying castings, forgings, bars, sheet, plate. Most US mills meet the spec all the time, at least the one's I've dealt with. I worked at an ASME plant for six years, if it wasn't to spec it would have gone right back on the truck!

China mills whether steel, aluminum, copper, etc, just don't have the discipline to routinely hit the spec. They sweep up the dirt and junk off the floor and throw it in the furnace. Quality engineer I worked with that has visited China suppliers dozens of times over the last 15-20 years says the quality will never equal what US mills produce. The shop help think they are helping their companies by getting rid of things that contaminate their metal heats. Same stuff is "Special Hazardous Waste" in this country the mills pay to get rid of.
 
Well, thanks for your input, it's well taken, but a company that went from USA made [with never a failure] to Made in china, with a 3 day life, If that isn't entrapment, i don't know what is. far as buying quality i will always spend for the better. Wil-Rich Co, will never get a check from me if i was the boss! Didn't Cat Machine Co make some crawler down in Mexico, years ago,there know as Gray Cats , and there no good, they bring a fraction of American made Cats.
 
Well, thanks for your input, it's well taken, but a company that went from USA made [with never a failure] to Made in china, with a 3 day life, If that isn't entrapment, i don't know what is. far as buying quality i will always spend for the better. Wil-Rich Co, will never get a check from me if i was the boss! Didn't Cat Machine Co make some crawler down in Mexico, years ago,there known as Gray Cats , and there no good, they bring a fraction of American made Cats.
 
It's us, not the Chinese. Average guy goes to the store, sees two products, whatever they may be, one is $4, one is $14, appear to be the same identical product..... without going any further, which one is the average guy gonna buy? [ Not you or me, I know, we would never do that, we are discerning, careful, USA, comparison shoppers.... ]
But after a few months, what brand is the store gonna restock?
 
A fella came to me once and needed a 1" sealed brg. I had what he needed ,he looked at it ,didnt like it cause made in Japan ,had to be Deere. He got a new Deere brg in a Deere box and it said "Made in Japan" on the brg. but that was better according to him. Go figure
 
(quoted from post at 05:31:18 04/17/15) . . . Average guy goes to the store, sees two products, whatever they may be, one is $4, one is $14, appear to be the same identical product..... without going any further, which one is the average guy gonna buy? . . .
That is what keeps Harbor Freight in business.
 
Yes, most of the U.S/Euro/JIS mill stuff is good, and meets certs. I would hazard 50/50 on the rest of the world, on the common steels, that I see. Alot of contamination and porosity on some of this stuff. Could just be the supplier we work with, too. They need their margin as well.

However, it does seem that for the common stuff, (1018's 1045's, CI, ETC),everyone is shooting for the low price point. On the more exotic, small run materials, I have seldom seen a problem with any U.S., Eurozone, or JIS products.

I could totally see how throwing stuff in a heat could be seen as "cleaning up/bulking up the heat".....most guys probably figure the garbage will slag off. It still alters the composition of the metal, however!
 
NTN/Bower head quarters(sign out front) is in Macomb IL. The plant is huge. I drive the truck inside to unload. I would guess 1 block wide and three long, all heated and air conditioned.
 

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