Fast hitch and TA questions

I've been keeping an eye out for another tractor, I have an H that I've put a 3pt on and rebuilt the engine. I'm Hoping to eventually stumble on an H, M or 300 that has a nice paint job, a Saginaw 3pt, and maybe an extra like a 9-speed M&W or power steering. I saw an ad for a nice 450 with power steering, fast hitch and TA. I waited a day and it was gone, but I got to thinking and wanted to get a few questions answered so that next time I see a good deal I can jump on it before it sells.
The TA basically would achieve similar advantages of a 9-speed M&W? 5th gear would be around 16mph and with the TA you would get around 11mph? That's a nice mid range speed when 4th is too slow and 5th is too fast.
The fast hitch is Farmall's 2pt?, I have a 3pt brush hog, a single and a double bottom plow, a 7' disc, a goose neck hauler, parade buddy seat and boom pole, how easy to find and how affordable would an adapter be to use these?
 
On the Farmall 2 point they make arms that fit in and you then have the 3 point balls. But you have to add a part for the center link. I have seen many way of making the center link part. Some weld ears on the bar up top or make a piece that sit on the bar etc.
 
Real F/H to 3pt. adapters aren't very hard to find, they have the top link too so you don't need to fool with the tractor. Have not bought one in a long time, used to be able to spend a couple hundred bucks on one pretty easy.
 
T/A really isn't the same as the M&W 9-speed. On the older mechanical T/A's you really shouldn't run for extended times in the low range. The tractor can free-wheel down hills which is hard on the overrunning clutch.

With the 9-speed you add four faster speeds than the 5 mph 4th gear but not as fast as 5th gear. Works good for things like raking hay, rotary hoeing corn/beans, peg tooth harrowing. The PTO, belt pulley and belly pump all run twice as fast too so PTO implements may not be able to Be run like hay mowers. 9-speeds could be used on H/SH/M/SM and the cooresponding W series but not SM-TA and 300/350/400/450 etc with T/A and live PTO.
 
I disagree (no flame) with your TA analysis. The use of the TA should be considered a real range selector. When in TA reduction, the one way clutch is not dragging (wearing from overrunning continuously) there are times when the tractor can freewheel down hill (usually when unloaded by draft equipment) the ground speed should never be allowed to be faster than that, 1 through 5 would go in direct. The issue is overspeeding the TA module possibly causing destruction. The TA one way clutch is continually wearing while in direct, due to the fact that it is continuously overrunning in direct.
Use it as needed for pulling. Running all day in 3rd gear with the TA back is just fine. I have a 350U with the original TA and original main clutch with 9000 hours and one engine rebuild. It is still completely operational. Adjustment is needed every 2 years or so.
Shift from TA direct to reduction as quickly as you can move the lever. Put it into direct just as quickly.
The hydraulic TA in the big series is only different in that it will not freewheel in TA reduction. The hydraulic TA is not to be used as a deceleration brake, the Hydraulic locking clutch is not intended to survive that kind of thrashing. The pulling power is in reality controlled by a one way clutch. Again this is not intended to irritate. Jim
 
Having had an H for 3 years and now a 300 for 2.5 years I have to say that I liked the H but the 300 is much handier. The TA is great for baling when you come to a big wad of hay in the windrow, or when you are in a very hilly field and need to climb with a baler or haybine. The IPTO and live hydraulics are both very nice. The fast hitch does the things a 3 point does as far as lifting and lowering of loads and carrying 3 point implements and it also has down pressure which is great for breaking the bead on tires and for using a box blade more effectively. With the FH drawbar I can tilt the hitch and lower it so the drawbar is right on the ground and back it under the end of a log, then lift it up and chain the log for skidding. The H was prettier(to me) and it was easier to work on when it broke down.
Zach
 
While it is true the one-way roller clutch is not over-running with the lever pulled as in 2-TA the throw-out bearing on the TA direct drive lock-up clutch is working. This is in a ta of the SM-TA to 686 style. Six of one and a half dozen of the other. In a tractor such as an 806 you could argue that you are better off in low range since you do not have the throw-out bearing issue the "dry"clutch TA's have. A TA in say a 966 that is adjusted right and used right will last a LONG time. In a 1586 less so. Shift them fast and do not use the ta to slow down a heavy load.
 
I'll add that 5th with the TA back is still too fast to do any useful field work, and if you have fields with rolling hills you'll be constantly stopping to downshift to 4th or riding the brakes down hills.

TA-equipped tractors generally come with a 7-8 MPH 4th gear that gives you a good raking and/or offroad transport speed. That's about as fast as you want to go unless the field is super-smooth.
 
For ground speed comparison,
The M&W advertised the following ground speeds between stock 4th & 5th gear.
6, 7.5, 9 & 11mph.

For the F300 ground speeds in MPH

Direct
Rev 3.1
1st 2.5
2nd 3.8
3rd 5.2
4th 6.6
5th 16.1

T/A
Rev 2.1
1st 1.7
2nd 2.6
3rd 3.5
4th 4.5
5th 10.9

To repair the T/A the tractor will need to be split twice
1. engine from torque tube (contains the T/A)
2. torque tube from trans/rear end housing
Not much to it once you get the hydraulic tower & fuel tank removed.
 
If a TA goes out yes it cost a good bit to fix and yes you have to split the tractor
 
I checked a few places online and a rebuilt TA unit is about $750 for the mechanical type. That's if you put it in yourself.
 
(quoted from post at 23:07:05 03/05/15) And if a TA goes out, how costly is it to rebuild? Does the tractor need to be split?

Hey yooper
I just replaced a TA in my 450
Yes tracyor has to be split but that's
Best anyway
That's the time to check other bearings and
In put shaft etc
I done mine myself and had around
900 bucks with a new throw out
Bearing and seals
 
I think you're really splitting hairs with the comment that the over running clutch is not wearing in the low side of the T/A.

By the same logic, any time you even run a tractor you are wearing out seals, bearings,clutches, etc.

So, you explain proper use of the T/A to somebody who has NO IDEA what a T/A even is!

I'm not buying the idea that the lo side of the T/A is a true Lo Range since the tractor is able to freewheel. Now the 706/806 and newer/larger tractors, maybe yes. Running lo range defeats the whole purpose that IH designed and built the T/A to fulfill.
 
Yes, the tractor has to be splitt. You need to have access to both ends of the TA housing to remove the TA assembly. Here is a cut-a-way picture of a TA unit that I have made. I'm planning on displaying this cut-a-way at the RPRU this June in Sedalia, MO.
17235.jpg
17239.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 08:24:07 03/06/15) Yes, the tractor has to be splitt. You need to have access to both ends of the TA housing to remove the TA assembly. Here is a cut-a-way picture of a TA unit that I have made. I'm planning on displaying this cut-a-way at the RPRU this June in Sedalia, MO.
17239.jpg


Very nice Charlie
I like
 
Charlie,
With your cut-a-way, perhaps you may be able to offer us some photo detail.
Where the flange of the torque tube bolts to the rear end, is this sealed by castings from the tranny-rear end flange?
I have an F300, and have heard both sides of the argument of what fluid to use in the tranny-rear end.
I know the T/A needs hy-trans. Some say to use hytrans in the rear end and tranny as well. Some say to use 90wt in the trans-rear end as the torque is sealed off by castings, flanges.
I have never had one apart, so this may be a way to settle it for everyone.
 
"Some say to use 90wt in the trans-rear end as the torque is sealed off by castings, flanges."

The TA is not sealed off. All TA tractors use Hytran in the TA, transmission, and rear end. There is no way to put hytran only into the TA, and no way to keep 90 wt out of the TA. There is only one opening for the whole thing.
 
You will most likely find that finding a Farmall H with a 9 speed much more difficult then finding a M so equipped. I spent several years looking for a H with a Heisler 9 speed and finally found one in Indiana that was an original Iowa family tractor. I already had a Farmall M with the Heisler 9 speed and was looking for a H likewise equipped.
There was a thread which listed the speeds of a H and M with the Heisler 9 speed conversion where Jim Becker posted them. You might be able to locate that thread in the archives as it was dated 09-20-2010 and started by Bernie Steffen. The speeds are noted for the Farmall M with 12 X 38 high cleat tires:

Normal Speed:
1st 2.68
2nd 3.56
3rd 4.36
4th 5.29
5th 16.75
Rev. 3.24

With Heisler in OD:
1st 5.76
2nd 7.64
3rd 9.35
4th 11.3
5th 16.75
Rev. 6.96

The H was noted with only slightly faster speeds in 4th for both normal and when in OD. One thing to note with the Heisler and most likely with the M&W 9 speed it that the PTO and belly pump are also running at increased speeds when the tractor is running in the OD mode. The max. normal PTO speed is 565 RPM while 1160 in OD. My Farmall H and M Heisler have a belly pump disconnect that can be activated when the 9 speed is engaged to prevent over speeding the pump. I generally only use those tractors for hay duties and pulling wagons between the field and barns loaded with small square bales and most always are using them with the 9 speed engaged. If you are ever down Missouri way stop by and demo them if desired but I think you will find a Farmall so equipped very useable for duties other then soil tillage where the factory gearing is more appropriate for breaking soil unless disking and harrowing where they would most likely be suitable. I think you will find that 9 speed conversions provides a lot more variation in speeds then possible with a TA which is designed for a totally different purpose, Hal.
 
What I was told,growing up with a 300u and a 340u, only use T/A when encountering a a hard pull-like a hard spot when plowing,then release the T/A.For example 2nd hi is ABOUT the same as 3rd T/A. The main reason being for this is that the T/A release bearing would be running against the T/A clutch fingers constantly.Just like if you drove with your foot on the clutch pedal,it would cause that throw out bearing to run constantly,and wear the pressure plate fingers and the bearing.My 300u which used to be a loader tractor, has had the T/A replaced by me, at @6000 hrs, but the clutch for it is still original.The main clutch has been replaced several times, but that was because the pto splines stripped out due to a lot of bush hog work.I now have 7500 hrs on it.Mark
 
When using low side of the t/a without coasting and the ramp and roller assembly holds, the t/a pressure plate or release bearing does not turn. Release bearing only holds pressure plate fingers down and T/A clutch disc only turns. When going to the high side then the whole T/A clutch assembly turns with the release bearing not touching the fingers if adjusted correct.
 
After I had to replace the pressure plate and IPTO drive gear on my 300 I poured the right amount of new oil in through the fill hole in the deck into the transmission but I didn't want to run the tractor till it had had time to fill up the TA area as well. I waited an hour or so and it was still not even findable with a wire stuck through the level plug hole so I rolled the tractor out the door of the building by hand so the front wheels went down the ramp and the rear wheels were still up on the slab a foot higher. Within 10 minutes or less the oil was right up to the level plug.
Zach
 
I'll go with what the owner's manual states. By looking at the photo I see no way of rear end oil to get into the torque cavity.
 
(quoted from post at 11:09:14 03/07/15) I'll go with what the owner's manual states. By looking at the photo I see no way of rear end oil to get into the torque cavity.
From the center housing rear the second wall has a oil seal for the t/a carrier and the t/a has a seal on the input or sun shaft to keep oil from flowing into the t/a clutch cavity. At the front narrow cavity between the walls a oil seal is on the PTO drive shaft at the front and next wall back. gasket is between transmission and center housing to seal. Oil gets into the part that the t/a gears and bearing are located. Its sling up oil that gets there a couple of ways and has a place oil ponds under the unit. Oil flows under the t/a cavity and up to the front cavity in the center housing. This cavity is to rear of the main clutch space. Also there's a oil passage to the narrow cavity for the PTO drive gears on the left side of the center housing if I remember correct. Narrow cavity has a oil level plug on the left side to make sure oil flowed to the correct level when filling.
Oil is slow traveling to the front when filling because it flows through the pto lower shaft bearings. Other oil passage feed is sling oil to a trough.
Only one with a dry center housing were built without t/a and also have a transmission driven pto or no pto.
 
Early tractors with TA had TA problems early on. the heavy oil was removed, and 10 wt non detergent was specified with an additive package from IH to make it into a suitable lubricant for high pressure gears. Hytran is the evolutionary end product of that effort. Jim
 
Pretty simple to find out. Drain the rear end, and front section. Refill the rear and you will soon find out the oil flows into the front section. Takes a little while but it gets there. If you filled each seperatly with different type of lubricant you will have a mixture shortly.
 

I took a few more pictures of the oil passages that allow transmission oil to flow into the TA housing. From the rear under the PTO drive shaft there is a passage that allows oil to flow to the narrow cavity that contains the PTO drive gears. From the PTO drive gear housing there is a passage that allows oil to flow to the TA plantary housing. I'm using a piece of tack cable to show the passages.
17286.jpg
17287.jpg
17288.jpg
 
Thank you for posting the photos, I appreciate everyone's input.
This is one I have tried to settle for a long time. I have never had one apart, so I was always curious why the two separate fill plugs on the left side, at the same level.
 
Picture of front face of transmission where oil flows through the bearings I mentioned. Lower hole has the counter shaft and front bearing and the PTO shaft and bearing taking up the space. Hole below that a bolt goes in it. Large hole at top has the rear of the T/A unit going in it. Its above the oil level also. Smaller hole is near the check plug level and oil level would need to be up to the check plug on level to flow through it. Or it may not they are close. So when you refill through the transmission fill opening the oil slowly flows through flows through the ball bearings and through the lower center housing passage to the front.
a185712.jpg
 
Great pictures and information, thanks for everyone who responded.

I forgot to ask another important question. I should have also asked, does the Farmall fast hitch system have depth control?? I would assume if there is a plow attachment, that it must.
 
It does, but it's not as good as a true "draft control" system. like [u:bcd4c30d20]most[/u:bcd4c30d20] 3 point tractors had, early versions had a cable "feedback" and they had a tendency to stick and not work as they should. Later ones had solid linkage and worked somewhat better. I think the solid linkage started during production of the *40/*60 series tractors... at least the early 240 was cable and later had solid.
 

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