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Is Case-IH oil worth the extra cost

L

littlefarmer

Member
I was wondering if Case-IH branded engine oil (low ash) and HyTran fluid is worth the extra cost over "generic" oil (purchased at the local farm store).

I have a Farmall 656, M, and H tractor. I use them to farm 160 acres, so they do some serious work.

The Case IH oil usually costs extra, but I want to know if the extra cost is worth it.

I have been told the IH oil is made by the same companies that make the oil you buy at the farm supply store.
 
For the tractors you have. I would say no.

I have a JD 4430. grandpa bought it in 1984. it has not had a drop of JD oil in it since we have had it. I have used only Gold Bond or rotella oil.

it's never had a john deere filter on it either since we've had it.

main thing is that you change the oil and keep them full.
 
Jim's opinion is controversial, but I think reasonable. (since it is mine). The 6 cylinder tractor has an issue with valve cokeing. This means that the oil coming down the valve stem gets heated to the point that it forms a carbon deposit of serious proportions that can and does cause valve failure, and poor performance from having a big glob of material in the port. This happens because the valve guides allow (opinion) too much oil to get past into the port. Modern valve seals (as found on today's engines) have solved that issue while providing measured amounts of oil. I believe that if the head was given valve seals when rebuilt (if it has been) will allow the use of any quality oil. If not I would use low ash oil in it. I would use 10-40 oil, or 15-40 Diesel grade oil (prefered) in the others. Jim
 
To add to what Jim said, your 656 has a Torque Amplifier on it. It should have IH Hy-Tran in it too.

As for the M and H, straight 80-90W is fine in the transmission/rear end.
 
I would consider the proper weight of high mileage synthetic engine oil in each, hytrans or equivalent in the 656 tranny, and 85-140 for the rear end/ tranny in both the H & M. This oil has a higher shear strength (gear face to gear face ) than the 85-90.
The initial cost will be high, but the savings in engine & tranny parts will equal out pretty fast. Replacement parts are getting higher in cost & will continue to be sporadic in availability.
A lot of "wear" replacement parts have become available, but good as original parts are getting more & more hard to find as a lot of the previous US sources have went out of business or now have their manufacturing facilities located overseas to save on labor costs. Some have managed to maintain their established reputation of quality , most haven't.
 
When speaking with possible retribution from the Vet, I displace myself from direct targeting. He He HE. Jim
 
It could depend on how much the extra cost is: $.05/quart or $2.50/quart difference?
 
I also like the low ash oil in the six cyl gasoline engines. Burns much cleaner so it does not leave nearly as much hard ash deposits behind on the valve head, piston heads and spark plugs. All IH gasket sets contain good and proper seals for that engine and have since about 1970. The intake guides have to be replaced with correct ones or machined to accept the seal supplied in gasket pkg. IH had a rather lengthy service bulletin at one time showing the results of using low ash oil and valve seals on those 6 bangers. One thing that never seems to come up on the valve burning situation is that the original factory installed valve seats were often not tight in head. You could tap on them very lightly and they would pop right out. That was a problem way back in the truck engines as well. We installed a lot of .015 oversize valve seats and that cut the valve burning way down even before IH introduced the low ash oil. I had a couple of those valve burning buggers in the immediate area. Pulled some hair out for a while until I finally talked the boss into getting a valve seat cutting machine. It was hand operated and I got a whole lot of exercise out of it. Now days, everyone just takes all that stuff to a machine shop. I had to rebuild them myself. Now as far as IH oil being the same, well nooooo, it is not. The base oil might be the same as other brands but the blender , Viscosity Oil for CASEIH and previously IH does not have a oil refinery. They purchase the base oil that meets their specs and then do the blending with their own additives to complete the package. It is a constant changing mechanism as you can see with all the changes that keep coming. It is darn spendy so up to you what you use. I would use it.
 
I am not saying a word. They can learn on there own . Same way i learned . and i don't care what ya use for valve stem seals as we tried them all and still ate exhaust valves .
 
I wish somebody would school me on this;
1. Does it is say "Low Ash" on the can?
2. I thought [maybe wrongly] that if you got the correct viscosity, like 10W-40, and if you got the latest API Service Rating, { like most all oils I see now are Service Rating 'SN' ], then they were all the same, they all had the same additives. The rest was advertising. Wrong?
 
Here's a few pics, hope this helps.
a181420.jpg

a181421.jpg
 
I agree with you TV, have seen and fixed them firsthand like you. Low ash and 93 all the way for me!

Brad
 
Don't know if its any cheaper but isn't CJ-4 or CJ-4-SL or oils recommended for the new diesels with DPF all low ash now?
 
Not being a mechanic, here is what I did. I have three M Farmalls which have been rebuilt at the IH dealer. I ran them each one season with whatever the dealer put in them and then changed them to Amsoil synthetic thirty weight. These tractors are used strictly for farming, no shows or parades. Ellis
 
Low Ash CaseIH oil has .5% ash, the current requirement is for 1% in conventional oils. Do the research. Ash in a Diesel engine helps buffer acids from sulfur and is currently reduced due to reduction in sulfur in fuel. Jim
 
We had so many different models of IH tractors and equipment growing up, I cant even name all of them, BUT we had Ms and Hs, a 706 gas, 806 gas and diesel, 460s, and 560s, and an IH combine, that I can recall right of hand. The ynever saw the first quart of IH oil, 93 octane, or any of the fancy smancy crap the experts say its suppose to have. We went through 1000s of gallons of gas and oil, and not once did we have a failure of any type in any of the engines we had running, and yes we did work them hard, regardless of what the experts say. Not one burnt valve or one burnt piston. The one time we dealt with a burnt valve was when my uncle took his 806 and played with the timing. I just don't buy the claims you HAVE to run CaseIH oil, or 93 octane.
 
I got into an argument with our IH zone manager once upon a time. I was upset about the 706 gasoline engines burning valves. He said , no one else is having problems so you have to be doing something wrong.
Not more than a few months later I went to a week service training session at Hickory Hills near Chicago. Several of us mechanics rode together and I had never known any of them before. In the shop talk that came up was, the question was what is IH doing about all the valve burning in the 706 tractors. I said, what, I was told no one else has any problem. To make a long story short, one of the subjects at the training session, you guessed it, short engine life, piston scoring, valve burning , oil consumption and spark plug fouling on 656 & 706 gas tractors. I knew of course it was not only in our area but people like to brush things under the rug. It was not until another year or so after that when IH came with a improved engine overhaul package at a reduced price that included their strong recommendation of using the low ash oil. When you work on forty or fifty different engines on a regular basis it is totally different than having a couple on your farm. Hell, I don't remember dad ever burning a valve on the two H tractors he had either but I sure did a lot of valve jobs on H and M's over the years but it was the 706 that took top honors. People brought them over to me from other areas as well because they were not happy with other dealers work. It is not a myth about as IH never spent a dime on an imagined problem in the 40 years I worked their dealers.
 
I didn't know how low the ash content needed to be for low ash. Know one brand claims 0.60%. Don't know about others but there prices are higher than the Case IH I think.
 
I don't doubt one bit others have had problems, we never did. Out 806 and 706 would sometimes run 20 - 24 hours a day, non stop. 99% of the time the oil that was put in either of them was the cheapest the local store had in stock, and it worked, not one single oil related failure, no burnt valves, or pistons or the severe damage people on here are claiming had happened. Again, not doubting you or anyone, we just never saw it in the years we farmed. And I refuse to believe that Case/IH oil is the "only" low ash oil that will work and prevent the damage that not using it supposedly causes. Sorry!
 
Took me a long time to LEARN the oil thing and only after talking to a guy named Bill From Marion Ind. who was and OLD I H dealer did i make the switch . Now for the life of me i can not remember Bill's last name as Clyde Burkshire introduce me to him as Clyde and i were talking about it at a sale he and i were at . Bill and his two brothers ran the dealership together and bill ran the service dept and Machine shop as they did EVERYTHING in house even crank grinding . Now as for another low ash oil Chevron Delo 100 is a low ash , have i tried it NO . Do i want to try it NO i will spend the bucks on Case I H low ash as i do not need anymore experience on head R&R and Valve grinding , seat installation or R&R of valve guides. Now IF we could get some true Forged pistons then maybe we could slow down the piston burning , along with some real GAS.
 
Not saying you have to believe anything. Free country. Just law of averages. I don't know what other low ash engine oil contain or do not contain. Low ash can mean many things to many people. Other low ash may be the same but if they won't state what additives they leave out of reduce I cannot compare, so will recommend IH low ash oil in gasoline engines.
 
well BACK then and again i say BACK then you did not have to WORRY about the gas as the reg gas at a gas station for the most part was 95 for reg. and if you were a young wild gear head your ride needed 105 or better like everything i owned . And i will tell ya'll once again back in the 60and into the mid seventy's high test was 105 or better and reg. gas was normally 95 so you ran Reg. in your tractor no problem . Now today it is a problem . You can not build and engine to factory spec. of the mid sixty's to run on the gas of today as you are NOT going to run a 10.5 to 1 compression ratio on the 93 even though it is the hightest of today . so your not going to get your old Mustang Nova road runner super bee to run like it did back then . Ya you can run your old M-450 on reg. is it doing all that it can Nope it ain't happing you may think so . stuff a set of 8500 ft. piston in one with a straight 450 gas head and a few other tweaks and see if ya can run Reg. But hey what do i know i have only been building engines for the last fifty two years .
 
John, my experience is the same as yours.

We ran two gas 503 combines for YEARS, regular gas, and Phillips 66 oil, and later Cenex oil, worked their guts out combining damp durum windrows, and NEVER had a valve or piston failure.

To be truthful, the older one (with God knows how many hours on it) finally pitched a connecting rod through the block, but with all the hours on it (the sheet metal of the machine was pretty much worn through), I never blamed not using oil from IH oil wells for it's demise!
 
My dad has 1967 farmall 706.Dad bought it from the neighbor in 1978.The former owner bought the tractor brand new.Dad did all the service/repair work on this tractor at his tractor repair business. We know the entire history of this tractor. It has had the Valves ground once,TA and clutch replaced once,one injector pump,one starter,and one water pump. It has not had a drop of IH oil or IH filters in decades. It does not use a drop of oil.
 
I currently own a 506, 656, 756, and 806, all gassers. I don't know what octane fuel or lubricating oil was used in them previous to my ownership, but it's evident that all 4 tractors have different cylinder heads than those that they came with originally. My dad always told me that these 6 cylinder IH gassers were valve failures on wheels, and my 4 tractors appear to be a testimate to his opinion. I love these tractors dearly but have heard for 50 years that the valves burn easily.
 
"I have heard" vs. a verifiable personal experience are two different things.

In that same era, there were other brands of gas tractors, and " (as well as Binder) that got run hard and put away wet, yet the only blather about "low ash oil" was from Binder????
 
IH introduced their low ash oil for gas engines at the time they were working on getting an oil for diesel engines that could go for 200 hours, The IH No 1 oil had about 4% ash content to combat the sulfur from the fuel for the 200 hour oil change. The would allow 200 hour oil changes with their oil but only 100 hours if you used another brand.
 
One thing I have NEVER heard from any of you "I never used high test fuel or CaseIH oil, and I've NEVER had a problem" guys, is an ALTERNATE THEORY for the problems.

When the guys that are having problems start using high test gas and CaseIH oil, the problems magically never happen again.
 
I do believe that if youll look at the archives
youll see why. Guys playing with timing, head
mods, etc to make it better than IH, youll see.
One poster admitted he changed the timing, and
overloaded his tractor, then blamed the fuel, and
when it happened again, blamed the oil! While I
can see the higher octane deal, I just cant buy
into the fact you HAVE to use Case/IH oil, or
youll blow your rengine, when their are, Im sure,
just as good if not better oil out there. And no,
I never used high test fuel or CaseIH oil, and
I've NEVER had a problem.
 
I wanted to add my 2 cents worth to this discussion.

My dad, mostly an IH guy, had a 656 gasser that he bought new. But when it required a 3rd valve job at about 1400 hours, he traded it for a 4020 JD. This would have been in the early 1970's and I don't know what fuel or oil he was using, though I suspect the oil was IH Low Ash. The 656 was his big tractor and it was used for all of the heavy field work. Dad took care of his equipment and did not abuse it. And he farmed with an M without problems for 18 years before trading it for the 656.

I now own a SH that was my dad's and I know that he used Low Ash oil in it. Dad had sold the SH when he retired from the farm and I bought it back 20 years later. The people who had bought it never used it much and I'm guessing that the parked it when the battery died. Fortunately it was inside, but from years of storage, it was the filthiest tractor I've ever seen. I don't think the engine has ever been overhauled. After buying the tractor, I went through everything before starting it. When I pulled the valve cover off, I expected to find a lot sludge. But instead, the engine was clean as could be. The only sludge was in the bottom of the oil pan. That was when I decided to use nothing but Case IH Low Ash Oil in it.

Finally, I have a 666 gasser that I bought with perhaps 12,000 hours on it. I am the 2nd owner and the original owner told me that it had been their main tractor for many years. When I asked him about valve issues, he said that they had always used Coop unleaded regular and Coop oil in it and never had any problems.
 
I was looking over old posts today and noticed your reply. First off, low ash oil is good, I like it but not the only reason for valve burning. In 1969 I went to Hickory Hills training school near Chicago for a week. One subject was gasoline engine reliability. At that time IH had not yet introduced low ash oil. That came a few years later. They also introduced a improvement package which included new sleeves & pistons, valves , valve seals and a new distributor along with improved gaskets. All of these along with low ash oil helped a lot. The 656 was not equipped with stellite valves but I did put them in a lot of them when doing valve jobs. Another things, once your torch a valve, you will often find the valve seat is no longer tight in the head and then you need to install oversize seats. The valve head gets rid of most of it's heat to the valve seat so if it is loose the valve runs too hot. Now as far as the 666, one thing they did was to increase the cubic inches of engine but stay with a smaller venture in the carburetor thus limiting the horse power some what. This reduces the available air to engine so therefore it also reduces the heat and pressure in the cyl. That engine lived much better due to these changes. You could easily get another 10 horsepower out of that C-291 in the 666 but running with extra cubic inches and lower horsepower it just plain made for better engine life. Note, my spell check keeps screwing up my spelling on the carb venture.
 
(quoted from post at 00:20:46 02/05/15)...

Finally, I have a 666 gasser that I bought with perhaps 12,000 hours on it. I am the 2nd owner and the original owner told me that it had been their main tractor for many years. When I asked him about valve issues, he said that they had always used Coop unleaded regular and Coop oil in it and never had any problems.
Click to expand...

I don't know if that 666 owner used it, but CO-OP "Special" was a low-ash gas engine oil available in the 1970's.

AG
 
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