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Need Starter Help for 1950 Chevrolet - OT

R

RTR

Well-known Member
Hey guys. I know there are some excellent electrical guys on here so I wanted to seek some help. I just bought a 1950 Chevrolet Deluxe Car with a 235 engine (later truck engine). I have no idea how long this car has been sitting, but it has been a good while. I hooked a battery up and was going to try and start the engine. Now....this is nothing like I'm used to with working on old tractors becuase the starter is wayyy down there and very hard to get to. I also don't have 15-16 parts cars like I do with the tractors.

THis starter has the large solenoid mounted on top of it. I was having to use a screwdriver to jump the terminals to engage the starter and the screwdriver slipped and hit the "small" terminal on the solenoid. It barely touched that terminal and it broke it loose from the plastic solenoid housing. All wires are still commected up. When I engage the starter, all the starter will do is spin.....the bendix is not engaging. I'm sure it is just stuck from setting so long.

I could use some tips and tricks to get the starter working, and get it working with it in the car if possible becuase I have no idea how I can remove it.
 
The starter drive could be stuck on the shaft. The solenoid is working because the relay component is working. in some, the drive clutch on the pinion could be broken, or the engagement lever could be off of the flanges on the drive. Taking it out has been a normal task for auto mechanics for a long time. Putting it on a set of ramps is my choice. Jim
 

Thanks Jim. I will see if I can get the front up in the air on jack stands and go in from the bottom. That top bolt/nut seems almost impossible. Hope the bottom one isn't as bad.
 
You will have to take it off to fully check it out.Usually if the starter is spinning you will need a new solinod.If it was me, I would take to starter shop an have gen. up graded to 1954 specs.. The 235 only came in power glide deluxe Chevies and had hydrolic valve lifters. After a few years the starter would get hot and act like dead battery,so 54 starter was better. .Only two bolts hold it on.Unhook battery neg. cable and then wires on starter. As stated above , make sure car on ramps and brake on.If your car is a standard shift, You may very well have the truck engine. If so, no hydrolic lifters.It could have the power glide engine also. Never know after all these years. Buck. Jim is always right on.
 
How are you engaging the starter? If you are just jumping across the from the battery cable stud to the starter motor terminal all you are doing is running the motor without the solenoid pulling the drive gear into the flywheel.
 
(quoted from post at 00:12:48 12/21/14) How are you engaging the starter? If you are just jumping across the from the battery cable stud to the starter motor terminal all you are doing is running the motor without the solenoid pulling the drive gear into the flywheel.
Click to expand...
Yup could be a few things so start with the cheapest.
1. make sure that you are arcing the right two posts.
2. you may need to remove the dust cover to see if the starter is still engaged in the flex plate turn the toque converter/crank a little to try and loosen the Bendix gear. You can use the large bolt on the Harmonic crank balancer.
2.5 go to the store and buy a pack of band-aids finger wrap type, you'll need them. :wink: :wink: :D
3. Disconnect the battery :the bolt - Is it two or three bolt starter cone?
3.5 Jackstands...
Either way you are going to need a 24" extension and a wobbly joint to get the top bolt. The two bolt, you'll get it from the back and the three bolt you'll go in from the front. Both ways you will need all your savvy to weave that long extension past the exhaust or through the motor mount past the gas lines.
From the factory chevy has a 7/16 nut on the back side of the starter to support the front of the starter, I would say that 99.999999% of them have been removed due to the fact they are a bugger to get back on. Once the bolts are out remove the battery cable from the starter.
Newer Chevy' have two knurled shank bolts going up though the bottom of the starter, sometimes this type needed shims to hold it away from the flex-plate ring gear. THIS TYPE OF STARTER WAS DOOMED FROM THE BEGINNING DUE TO HEAT OFF THE EXHAUST. FYI > If you can slip a thin sheet of aluminum between the exhaust and starter you can double the life of the starter.
4. Don't drop the starter on your fingers or your face, and if you do at least you have band-aids ;)
5. a bad valve cover gasket can drip enough oil on the starter to make it do funky things even flames. Oil can get in and ground out the solenoid contacts, brushes and/or armature. Also if the starter is oil flooded when it cools down it drags even more.
That's it for now
Good luck
 
(quoted from post at 14:07:19 12/21/14)
k
Click to expand...

Wow, thank you for the help. We have pretty much confirmed it to be a 235 Truck Engine. To me the starter looks like a 2 bolt cone. What do you mean by saying that I would go from the back to remove it? Also, did you really mean to say 24 inch extension?? I have one of those, but how would I use it to go about removing the starter? Seems a little long.

I really would like to try the starter if at all possible before removing it since it seems to be a bear to remove. Yes, I figured out I was jumping the wrong terminals. Which ones to jump?
Click to expand...
 
(quoted from post at 06:55:47 12/21/14)
(quoted from post at 14:07:19 12/21/14)
k
Click to expand...
, did you really mean to say 24 inch extension?? .,.....

I really would like to try the starter if at all possible before removing it
Click to expand...
Yes 24" extension.. Sorry, was my dyslexia showing again?
By all means try to do what you can before you crawl under to pull out the starter, that's what i would do too..
I wrote that from memory and was probably thinking of the Jeep two bolt starter I worked on last time. I'm sure you will need a long extension to get in behind the starter to get the top bolt.
Click to expand...
 
(quoted from post at 19:19:53 12/21/14)
(quoted from post at 06:55:47 12/21/14)
(quoted from post at 14:07:19 12/21/14)
k
Click to expand...
, did you really mean to say 24 inch extension?? .,.....

I really would like to try the starter if at all possible before removing it
Click to expand...
Yes 24" extension.. Sorry, was my dyslexia showing again?
By all means try to do what you can before you crawl under to pull out the starter, that's what i would do too..
I wrote that from memory and was probably thinking of the Jeep two bolt starter I worked on last time. I'm sure you will need a long extension to get in behind the starter to get the top bolt.
Click to expand...

OK...

UPDATE:

I just went out and tried to jump the starter again.....this time with the large terminal to the battery and the small terminal on the solenoid. I used a large jumper wire with alligator clips and I just touched the positave terminal on the battery rather than trying to reach down in there with my hands. All I got were big sparks at the battery when I touched it to the post.

Does this mean that the solenoid is bad?
Click to expand...
 
Solenoid could be stuck or the bendex could be stuck. Either way about to only fix is to pull the starter and clean things up and maybe replace the solenoid
 
'

that's what I'm gonna do. The small terminal is broken off the plastic solenoid housing, so I am gonna spend the $70 on a new solenoid. I'm really wanting to try and get the car running at minimal cost to evaluate it from there. It isn't like these old tractors where I have tons of parts and can get them running for less than $10 before I can proceed with parting them or refurbishing them. haha. THanks old.
 
$70 I would check around at another parts place that sounds way to high. Last Chev solenoid I got was around $20
 
you say its a 1950 235 cid truck engine, so that would make it 6 volt. and those had the foot start. and they were manually engaged with your foot.but anyhow you need to jump from the larger "S" terminal on soleniod to the batt cable on starter. its like you have a newer style starter on there. its just a 6 cyl. and those starters are not that hard to remove. also sounds like you have soleniod problem if you say the termial is broken.
 
(quoted from post at 20:58:27 12/21/14) you say its a 1950 235 cid truck engine, so that would make it 6 volt. and those had the foot start. and they were manually engaged with your foot.but anyhow you need to jump from the larger "S" terminal on soleniod to the batt cable on starter. its like you have a newer style starter on there. its just a 6 cyl. and those starters are not that hard to remove. also sounds like you have soleniod problem if you say the termial is broken.
Click to expand...

The car is a 1950 sedan (216 I6 would have been original), and the engine is a 235 I6 from a newer model (than 1950) truck. I'm about to try to remove the starter.
 
manual trans.??? ... just pull start it, then evaluate.
way back then pull starting was the normal due to dead batt's. or even parked on a hill and then rolled down to start. lots of tricks. even hand pushed to start.
 
(quoted from post at 21:04:42 12/21/14) manual trans.??? ... just pull start it, then evaluate.
way back then pull starting was the normal due to dead batt's. or even parked on a hill and then rolled down to start. lots of tricks. even hand pushed to start.
Click to expand...

It's not that easy. The clutch pedal isn't working. It's not like an old tractor that can sit for decades and still be ok.
 
on some of those old vehicles, i remember that you needed a special wrench to remove distributor and maybe starter.
 

Hi,

Visiting from the N forum.

I have a 235 in my 1951 chev aluminum step Van. I took this engine which was my very first complete rebuild, out of one of my Chev Flat Decks and put it into the van. The engine is a late '53 and so it has the full 48 psi oil pressure -- no dippers on the rods and only 14 psi. My main bearing caps are all shimmed but not the rod caps.

The floor button start in the Flat Deck was beside the gas pedal
but of course in the Step Van, the button wound up being way back as the engine is further back.

So . . . I made a hole for the button in the engine surround, and used the gas pedal arm from an old Austin, as my lever to push the starter button. works like a charm. :)
mvphoto14221.jpg


2nd photo
The lever actually pulls to the side and will go behind the button as a theft deterrent.

Terry


mvphoto14222.jpg
 
Looks like an alternator on it so I would think 12 volts. Engine is 55 or newer. It may still have the 6 volt starter on it.
 
:oops: I have no Idea why but I was thinking it was a V8 for some damn reason. :oops: That starter should be easy to get out being that it is an inline 6 and there is lots of room.
Does that Bendix pull backwards into the flex-plate, like the Ford 243 straight 6?
 

All of the 50's GM starter bendix's I had over the years were straight ahead to engage the ring gear.
 
(quoted from post at 06:12:36 12/22/14)
All of the 50's GM starter bendix's I had over the years were straight ahead to engage the ring gear.
Click to expand...

Yep, they are VERY SIMILAR to the Delco starters on the Farmall Super A tractors I have. Could be the same starter in some form I guess.

I was able to get the starter off.....once I crawled "into" the engine bay and got the correct length end wrench. There was no way I could have gotten a socket on it having that the solenoid was on top in the way. It came off with a SHORT 3/4 wrench. Luckily I had a short one because most are longer that size. I will post some pictures of it tomorrow.
 
(quoted from post at 06:58:57 12/22/14)
(quoted from post at 06:12:36 12/22/14)
All of the 50's GM starter bendix's I had over the years were straight ahead to engage the ring gear.
Click to expand...

Yep, they are VERY SIMILAR to the Delco starters on the Farmall Super A tractors I have. Could be the same starter in some form I guess.

I was able to get the starter off.....once I crawled "into" the engine bay and got the correct length end wrench. There was no way I could have gotten a socket on it having that the solenoid was on top in the way. It came off with a SHORT 3/4 wrench. Luckily I had a short one because most are longer that size. I will post some pictures of it tomorrow.
Click to expand...


Been thinking about this.....do you think a starter from a Farmall Super A, 140, H, or M tractor would bolt up and work on this car?? I haven't compared them side-by-side, but visually and from memory the body cases & mounting flanges look exactly the same. I mean.....would it not work just so I could try and get the engine running to further evaluate the car rather than spending $100 having the car starter rebuilt and "wasting" time on that???

Here are some pictures of the Chevrolet 235 I6 starter (1959 engine and 1950 car).


mvphoto14255.jpg


mvphoto14256.jpg


mvphoto14257.jpg


mvphoto14258.jpg


mvphoto14259.jpg


mvphoto14260.jpg
 
If you cleaned and roughed up the mating faces of that broken bakelite, Devcon Plastic steel would repair it well. The bakelite may already have nice porous faces at the break.

I'm thinking I might still have this same GM starter and solenoid down in my shop -- unless I turfed it.

Always important to steel wool and wire toothbrush clean, exposed threads before trying to back a nut off over rust. :)
 
(quoted from post at 00:12:05 12/23/14) If you cleaned and roughed up the mating faces of that broken bakelite, Devcon Plastic steel would repair it well. The bakelite may already have nice porous faces at the break.

I'm thinking I might still have this same GM starter and solenoid down in my shop -- unless I turfed it.

Always important to steel wool and wire toothbrush clean, exposed threads before trying to back a nut off over rust. :)
Click to expand...

That peice was broken off before I tried to remove the starter......when I was trying to jump it with a screwdriver to attempt and start the engine. I promise I barely put some pressure against it to jump it and it just snapped off like a dead twig. I was using a LONG (about 2 ft ) screwdriver.
 

Oh sorry, if I gave the impression that I thought YOU broke it, cause I didn't.

cheers,
T
 
(quoted from post at 00:57:00 12/23/14)
Oh sorry, if I gave the impression that I thought YOU broke it, cause I didn't.

cheers,
T
Click to expand...

It's fine. I was just explaining that it didn't break from trying to loosen the nut. I'm guessing that it was previously fractured in that area, or just old and brittle. Since it was broken I decided to just cut the wire and not fool with trying to un-do the nut.
 
Looks like the plunger is rusted tight in the solenoid. If the plunger can't move the lever the drive gear will never engage nor will the contacts close to engage the starter motor.
 
Even if a super A starter fit in the hole, and engaged the ring gear, the motor would turn backwards. The starter in an A series is in the bell housing not from the engine side. Jim
 
(quoted from post at 21:51:27 12/23/14) Even if a super A starter fit in the hole, and engaged the ring gear, the motor would turn backwards. The starter in an A series is in the bell housing not from the engine side. Jim
Click to expand...

That's right Jim. I hadn't even remember those came in from the other side. I was thinking they were the same as the Cub and came in from the engine side. It was just a thought...
 
Just my two cents but, I would hook a tractor up to the car and get a buddy to pull start the engine. You may learn that a new engine is needed and your money maybe better spent else where instead of a starter for an engine that is no good.
 
(quoted from post at 22:17:57 12/23/14) Just my two cents but, I would hook a tractor up to the car and get a buddy to pull start the engine. You may learn that a new engine is needed and your money maybe better spent else where instead of a starter for an engine that is no good.
Click to expand...

Clutch pedal isn't working. It is stuck to the floorboard and will move but not on it's own.
 
(quoted from post at 13:54:50 12/23/14) Clutch pedal isn't working. It is stuck to the floorboard and will move but not on it's own.
Click to expand...
hat sounds like linkage that has fallen apart. Maybe you can fix the clutch for the price of a cotter pin.
 
(quoted from post at 00:01:05 12/24/14)
(quoted from post at 13:54:50 12/23/14) Clutch pedal isn't working. It is stuck to the floorboard and will move but not on it's own.
Click to expand...
hat sounds like linkage that has fallen apart. Maybe you can fix the clutch for the price of a cotter pin.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I need to check on that issue. Could just need some lubrication. With these short days and working during the week I don't have much time to look at it. I wish I had it in our workshop, but unfortunately the welding machine is in there getting serviced right now. We have a pit in there and it would make it easier looking/working under the car and such. I hope to be able to work on her some more day after Christmas or this weekend.
 
That might not be a truck engine, the power glides
had the 235 engines in them too. I re-built a 235
out of a wrecked '50 power glide and put it into my
'51 straight shift a long time ago. I also helped
a friend that put a 3 speed out of a wrecked 1/2
ton in a '52 power glide when the power glide went
out about the same time. That was a lot of fun,
making the bell housing & clutch linkage all fit.
(My $0.02 worth. jal-SD)
 
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