IH Hydro 656 - No Steering, No Forward, No Reverse

RedBarnNate · Dec 12, 2014

Hello Tractor Community,

You've been very helpful to a mechanic-in-training in the past, so I came back to seek advice on a Hydro 656.

The customer used the tractor for scraping out stalls at a dairy. His operator called him one day and told him the tractor won't move forward/reverse, and power steering quit.

The tractor is here in our show.

1. It starts, runs, 3 point hitch raises slowly/jerky, pto spins.
2. Hydrostat Fluid appears full, with new filters.

Where should we go on this one?

Thank you,
Nathan

pete 23 · Dec 12, 2014

Dead head the aux hydraulic valves and see if pto stops turning. If it does I say splines at flywheel drive stripped. If it still turns you have two separate problems. Then I would cap fittings to lines to foot n inch and see if hydrostatic problem is internal or external.

RedBarnNate · Dec 15, 2014

Hi thanks for the reply. If I understand you correctly, I tried this test. With the tractor running, I engaged PTO. When it was spinning, I moved both aux hydraulic remote control levers and held them in both directions. The PTO kept spinning.

"Then I would cap fittings to lines to foot n inch and see if hydrostatic problem is internal or external."

Could you please explain this for me? Which lines are you referring to?

pete 23 · Dec 15, 2014

You would cap the fittings at transmission that lines number two and four are hooked to. I should have said lines that go to control valve instead of foot n inch valve. With those capped, if tractor moves with speed ratio lever, realize you will not have any control with the foot n inch pedal as it is eliminated for the test. Did the tractor labor when you pulled the hydraulic valves as it should. There are two hydraulic pumps with one mounted piggy back on other. The main pump is steering and aux valves. Other is for hitch and when hitch is not raising, that flow also goes to aux valves. If main pump is not turning the other cannot turn either. Also, the pto drives from same gear and shaft as hydraulic pump. So, if hitch raises that means both pumps are turning. By putting a load on the pumps like trying to steer or dead heading the aux valves, pto would stop if main drive splines were sheared off. I think you have more than one problem.

RedBarnNate · Dec 15, 2014

Ok I think you mean install a cap on the fittings that lines # 1 & 4, since those are the lines that come out of the transmission, correct?

No, the tractor did not audibly labor when we dead-headed the control levers for the remote valve.

Owen Aaland · Dec 15, 2014

Did the problem start after the filter was changed? If not is there damage to the filter cover?

The jerky hitch action could be an indication of air getting into the system. Air in the system would be one thing that could cause the symptoms of both loss of hydraulics and hydrostatic function. The PTO shaft drives the two hydraulic pumps but the hydro charge pump is driven by the hydro input shaft and should not be affected by loss of the other pumps.

RedBarnNate · Dec 15, 2014

If the PTO still spins, does that mean that the shafts inside the transmission should be ok?

RedBarnNate · Dec 15, 2014

(quoted from post at 14:02:09 12/15/14) Did the problem start after the filter was changed? If not is there damage to the filter cover?

The jerky hitch action could be an indication of air getting into the system. Air in the system would be one thing that could cause the symptoms of both loss of hydraulics and hydrostatic function. The PTO shaft drives the two hydraulic pumps but the hydro charge pump is driven by the hydro input shaft and should not be affected by loss of the other pumps.

The filter was changed by the owner of the tractor in an attempt to try to get the tractor to move again. There is no visible damage to the filter cover.

Now I'm understanding this more clearly I believe. Even if the PTO spins, that doesn't mean that the hydro input shaft is spinning, which should spin the hydrostatic propulsion charge pump.

RedBarnNate · Dec 15, 2014

Here are two pictures of the hydraulic transmission fluid dipstick/cap fluid level check. I followed instructions on the dipstick and checked the fluid level at 1200 engine rpm after running for 3 minutes.

Does it look like there is excessive air bubbles in the fluid? It also looks very over-full to me. What do you think? Could this help point us in the right direction?

Jim Naden · Dec 15, 2014

(quoted from post at 16:04:00 12/15/14)
Here are two pictures of the hydraulic transmission fluid dipstick/cap fluid level check. I followed instructions on the dipstick and checked the fluid level at 1200 engine rpm after running for 3 minutes.

Does it look like there is excessive air bubbles in the fluid? It also looks very over-full to me. What do you think? Could this help point us in the right direction?

The fluid appears overfull due to the pumping failure not moving fluid to fill the hydrostatic section.

If the charge pump has had a catastrophic failure it could cause a suction leak that would affect the other pumps ability draw adequate fluid to operate. That would also be the reason for the aerated fluid.

RedBarnNate · Dec 15, 2014

So based on the pictures I've provided and the symptoms...

1. Air in Hydr Fluid
2. Fluid Overfull on Dipstick when running
3. No Power Steering
4. No Movement Forward/Reverse

...it appears like we need to split the tractor?

Jim Naden · Dec 15, 2014

(quoted from post at 16:48:59 12/15/14)
So based on the pictures I've provided and the symptoms...

1. Air in Hydr Fluid
2. Fluid Overfull on Dipstick when running
3. No Power Steering
4. No Movement Forward/Reverse

...it appears like we need to split the tractor?

Getting close.

Might drain the fluid, remove the pumps which will also allow inspection of the suction pipes for a possible less severe cause.

RedBarnNate · Dec 15, 2014

(quoted from post at 17:13:57 12/15/14)

(quoted from post at 16:48:59 12/15/14)
So based on the pictures I've provided and the symptoms...

1. Air in Hydr Fluid
2. Fluid Overfull on Dipstick when running
3. No Power Steering
4. No Movement Forward/Reverse

...it appears like we need to split the tractor?

Click to expand...

Getting close.

Might drain the fluid, remove the pumps which will also allow inspection of the suction pipes for a possible less severe cause.

We can start in on this tomorrow. I'm guessing pump removal is done by removing the lower plate after draining fluid?

Jim Naden · Dec 15, 2014

Pump is mounted on the square plate on the right side.

Owen Aaland · Dec 16, 2014

If the tractor has the additional spin on filter for the hydrostatic pump check to make sure no one has used jumper cables to start the tractor and accidentally made contact between the battery cable and the filter. That can burn a small hole in the filter where it is hard to see and allow air into the hydro charge pump. When that happens the tractor will not move.

If the hydrostatic pump is putting the air in the system the other hydraulics nay work a short period of time when first started after sitting overnight.

The oil should be clear enough to clearly see the dip stick through the oil. The oil level should drop between 1 1/2 to 3 inches after running three minutes after a cold start.

RedBarnNate · Dec 16, 2014

(quoted from post at 00:23:57 12/16/14) If the tractor has the additional spin on filter for the hydrostatic pump check to make sure no one has used jumper cables to start the tractor and accidentally made contact between the battery cable and the filter. That can burn a small hole in the filter where it is hard to see and allow air into the hydro charge pump. When that happens the tractor will not move.

If the hydrostatic pump is putting the air in the system the other hydraulics nay work a short period of time when first started after sitting overnight.

The oil should be clear enough to clearly see the dip stick through the oil. The oil level should drop between 1 1/2 to 3 inches after running three minutes after a cold start.

Ok thanks for the note on the spin-on filter. We will check that out. The 3 point hitch seems to work as long as the tractor runs. The PTO also spins continually. The Power Steering does not work regardless of time running.

The oil is definitely not clear enough to read the dipstick through the oil. The level also doesn't drop regardless of running for 3 minutes after a cold start.

RedBarnNate · Dec 16, 2014

We dropped the hydr fluid, and the transmission lower cover. Now removing plate on RH side of transmission to inspect pump and suction line. See pics of what we found.

NOTE: Spin-on Hydr. Filter appears OK.

RedBarnNate · Dec 16, 2014

Removed pump mounting plate on RH side, removed pump, carefully disassembled pump. The suction tube and gasket were in good condition and installed correctly. There is a gasket inside the pump that is cracked (see picture). There is also a crack in the housing of the pump that appears to not affect the operation of the pump (see picture). There is "gouging" and "dings" in the pump housing where the gears move fluid (see picture).

RedBarnNate · Dec 16, 2014

Pictures Attached.

pete 23 · Dec 16, 2014

I see you are finding some issues. If you get into the hydro itself and find the charge pump is indeed shelled out you will find the price of one out of this world. I understand someone has come up with a solution of using a gear pump to do the job of the charge pump with some extra plumbing etc.

RedBarnNate · Dec 17, 2014

Tractor is now in the process of being split. Too much brass found in the hydro to do simple repairs. Lift/Steering pumps trash.

Will update!

dougnash · Dec 21, 2014

Herrs Machine in Kansas is who you need to call, they fixed my Hydro 86. I was not about to pay case just what they wanted for the charge pump. Ask for Raleigh, he can answer any tractor hydro questions you throw at him.

RedBarnNate · Sep 4, 2015

(quoted from post at 20:32:43 12/21/14)

Herrs Machine in Kansas is who you need to call, they fixed my Hydro 86. I was not about to pay case just what they wanted for the charge pump. Ask for Raleigh, he can answer any tractor hydro questions you throw at him.

I know this is an old thread, but Raleight at Herrs Machine was the hydro expert that helped us with the repair! He sent us an upgraded/rebuild transmission, and we sent him our core.

The tractor has been back working hard again for awhile now.

THUMBS UP to Raleight and Herr's Machine in Kansas!

IH Hydro 656 - No Steering, No Forward, No Reverse

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