200 STILL hard to start

clint s

Member
New coil and no change. Still really hard to start. IF it does start it idles smooth and seems to run well. A few questions. Points: When I open the points manually what color should the spark be. Mine looks like a white starburst not a blue arc. Should it spark every time I open it? I usually have to wait a few seconds between. If I open in quick succession it will not spark and sometimes every now and then now spark even if I wait. Battery may have been a bit low towards the end due to trying to start it.

Coil gets really hot when trying to start/ opening and closing points with screwdriver

Here is something strange that happened. When opening and closing the points a few times I had a HUGE pop and backfire once and a little one another time. The cap was hanging quite far away. How could a spark get up there to do that with the cap off.
Lets tart there for now........
 
Does your wife have a voodoo tractor she is killing
while you are trying to work on yours!!! Lol.
 
The spark that is important is the one at the spark plugs, not the spark at the points. The spark at the points should be pretty easily seen, but not checked for color. If the battery is charged well, and you looked at the point spark with your eyes parallel to the gap, you would likely see a repeated nice small spark.
Heating of the coil is normal. The Duty Cycle (time off and time on) of the coil is much less than 50% due to the short time the points are closed compared to the time they are open on each revolution. This means the coil is not running all the time normally. thus when turned on and not running it is on full time.
I am going to suggest that you use a volt meter to check the voltage going into the coil from the switch when cranking. If it is below 9 volts, it will be tough to start. Do this by disconnecting the coil to distributor wire from the cap,and grounding it to the engine. Then, with a volt meter reading the voltage at the supply side of the coil, crank it and read the volts. A bad ignition switch, or connections or wires will cause the low volts.
Another cause is small and or corroded battery cables, also making voltage loss.
The reason the tractor poped is because the coil put out enough voltage to jump from the center terminal of the cap, to a plug terminal, and that plug happened to be in a cylinder with fuel and air. Don't check the spark at the points and don't let the high voltage coil wire dangle while checking. Holding the coil wire 1/4" away from the block (cloths pins work well) is best. jim
 
(reply to post at 18:32:16 06/03/14)
Thanks that makes sense for the pop. Did check spark at the plugs and it "seemed" OK but who knows. Dealing with alot of old wiring so I will check cranking voltage tomorrow after the battery charges.
Will do as follows if I read the above right: Disconnect the wire that runs from the - (negative) post of the coil to the distributor and ground it, then check cranking voltage at the + (positive) post of the coil.

Will do tomorrow
 
Use a hydrometer and check the specific gravity of each battery cell and compare the readings. Should see a reading of 1.280 on a fully charged battery. If one cell reads real low you need a new battery. Also check your charging voltage across the battery terminals with the engine at 1/2 throttle or better. Should see around 14 volts using a volt meter. Hal
 
Hmm, must be catching. I'm having spark problems with a Super C, but at least you're getting some spark. I got nuthin'.

Isn't opening the points with a METAL screwdriver self-defeating? If you touch anything at all, the spark is compromised.

You'd want to use something at least semi-insulated.
 
The wire Jim wants you to ground is the high voltage wire (coil spark lead) when disconnected from the center terminal of the dist cap. The purpose of disconnecting that wire is so that the engine is not firing or attempting to start. That way the starter is placing a full cranking load on the battery to give you the voltage at the coil in a sort of worst case scenario.
 
you should use copper wire on this tractor. on top of the rotor button, there is a flat spring that contacts the inner side of the coil terminal wire. make sure that this flat spring is in good contact with the terminal post and that both are clean.
 
(quoted from post at 08:53:09 06/04/14) you should use copper wire on this tractor. on top of the rotor button, there is a flat spring that contacts the inner side of the coil terminal wire. make sure that this flat spring is in good contact with the terminal post and that both are clean.

Cranking voltage is 9.5 to 9.7 at + coil . I have used a different battery so I know that is not the issue. Started right up tonight without much of an issue, but only tried once
 
my C became harder to start and finally would not start at all. coil wire was burning into. conductor wire would get shorter and shorter until it would not start.
 
That voltage is at the low side of OK. A 200 should crank like no- body"s -business.
Check the battery cables. They should be 2 gauge or better to be carrying enough amps.
One way to see if it is cable related is to run a jumper cable on both the hot and ground side of the battery to the starter (hot to the starter switch, and ground to the starter bolt to chassis. This effectively increases the cable size without purchasing new till the test proves the need. Jim
 
(quoted from post at 16:21:36 06/04/14) That voltage is at the low side of OK. A 200 should crank like no- body"s -business.
Check the battery cables. They should be 2 gauge or better to be carrying enough amps.
One way to see if it is cable related is to run a jumper cable on both the hot and ground side of the battery to the starter (hot to the starter switch, and ground to the starter bolt to chassis. This effectively increases the cable size without purchasing new till the test proves the need. Jim

As far as the starter cranking it does crank really fast without an issue. I will check the cables clean them up. The cables at least #2 BUT the cable ends are the ones where you just tighten the cables in with 2 bolts like this
http://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-BAF-TTC-Coated-Terminal-Washer/dp/B0060YHLHU/ref=sr_1_20?ie=UTF8&qid=1401926266&sr=8-20&keywords=battery+terminal+ends

I will get new ends and solder them in when I get a chance.

Still thinking this could/may be carb related either to littel or too much gas but at this point who knows
 
(quoted from post at 08:53:09 06/04/14) you should use copper wire on this tractor. on top of the rotor button, there is a flat spring that contacts the inner side of the coil terminal wire. make sure that this flat spring is in good contact with the terminal post and that both are clean.

Will check this too, possibly just by a new rotor
 
This comes from the time we had to actually use the tractors to work. They do not like to sit up. They like to run and if they set up too long they get testy. Clean the points with a thin paper or dollar bill. Make sure the fuel is fresh. Do not hesitate to use a little starting fluid after a long period without running. Make sure there is no condensate in the carb. Do drain both the tank bowl and the carburetor bowl. If it starts to run rough drain the bowls again. I have had to do this several times while burning a couple of tanks of gasoline before it would start and run well. Once it clears out the old fuel and condensate it will run fine. If the problem does not come back then act as though it never happened. You might have had both a spark problem and a fuel problem or one or the other. If cranking it up and letting it run for a while solved the problem then get your plowing done.
 
(quoted from post at 18:51:11 06/04/14) This comes from the time we had to actually use the tractors to work. They do not like to sit up. They like to run and if they set up too long they get testy. Clean the points with a thin paper or dollar bill. Make sure the fuel is fresh. Do not hesitate to use a little starting fluid after a long period without running. Make sure there is no condensate in the carb. Do drain both the tank bowl and the carburetor bowl. If it starts to run rough drain the bowls again. I have had to do this several times while burning a couple of tanks of gasoline before it would start and run well. Once it clears out the old fuel and condensate it will run fine. If the problem does not come back then act as though it never happened. You might have had both a spark problem and a fuel problem or one or the other. If cranking it up and letting it run for a while solved the problem then get your plowing done.

I have been fighting this issue for a few year now, but it has gotten worse this year. At first it would not start only a few times a summer. Last year during haying it world be worked every other day or so the whole summer raking and tedding hay. Could work fine for a day or a week with no issues then stall and not start, shut it off and no start or go to start in the AM and tough start. Let it sit for a few hours and it would usually start and run fine for a day or a week. Because of this I do not think it is a fuel condensate issue. Bowl and site glass drained several times already this year.

12 volt coil no resistor required does NOT need a resistor between Coil and distributor right..........

ie you will not burn up the "6 volt" points with a proper 12 volt set up
 
Jim, If he has a hot enough spark to jump across the cap without a rotor, the cap has to be wet or carbon tracked. Maybe that is the whole problem.
 
(quoted from post at 20:14:34 06/04/14) Jim, If he has a hot enough spark to jump across the cap without a rotor, the cap has to be wet or carbon tracked. Maybe that is the whole problem.

Yea it was backfiring a few times with the cap just hanging there and opening the points with a screwdriver.

Not wet by looking at it and it looks OK. Fairly new, not 10 years old, but maybe 2 or 3 I may clean the old cap really well and retry or even by a new cap and rotor.
 
just a thought.
did you check the side ways movement of the
distributor shaft?
like i say, just a thought.

J in Pa
 
(quoted from post at 17:04:04 06/04/14)
(quoted from post at 08:53:09 06/04/14) you should use copper wire on this tractor. on top of the rotor button, there is a flat spring that contacts the inner side of the coil terminal wire. make sure that this flat spring is in good contact with the terminal post and that both are clean.

Will check this too, possibly just by a new rotor

Is this the little black button in the middle of the distributor. I can see no spring anywhere and the button does not move. Thinking it may be time for a new cap and rotor
 
Bent the rotor tab up a bit for more contact to the top of the cap. Tedded a field the other day and dad said it started well but stalled once but started right back up. So far seems to be starting better. Time will tell
 
Well we have gotten through most of the hay fields and it has performed well. Consistent starting, good power and no stalling oat. We use it for tedding. I am hoping between the new coil, really cleaning the carb good and bending up that rotor tab a little solved my issues. I guess only time will tell before something else pops up , but that is the fun of it all right
 
Cranking voltage is 9.5 to 9.7 at + coil . I have used a different battery so I know that is not the issue. Started right up tonight without much of an issue, but only tried once

That's too low. Under 10V and you get a weak spark.

Your starter is dragging down the voltage. We had the same problem on that aforementioned Super C a few years ago. Turned out the shaft on the starter was bent. Put a different starter on it and it was a whole different tractor.
 
(quoted from post at 11:04:16 07/14/14)
Cranking voltage is 9.5 to 9.7 at + coil . I have used a different battery so I know that is not the issue. Started right up tonight without much of an issue, but only tried once

That's too low. Under 10V and you get a weak spark.

Your starter is dragging down the voltage. We had the same problem on that aforementioned Super C a few years ago. Turned out the shaft on the starter was bent. Put a different starter on it and it was a whole different tractor.

You know the other thing I forgot to say was that the starter stopped working towards the end of this. I took it apart and 2 of the 3 brushes were TOAST. I replaced them and have not taken a voltage reading since.
 

Just wanted to put this to bed, often posts do not have the solution posted and those who search read the posts only to not find a solution.
I rewired the tractor and it has not missed a beat since then and this problem is gone. No stalls, starts fine and uns as it should. It was our ay tedder again this year.
 

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