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Re: FARMALL 460 Stalling Issue

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pete 23

01-21-2013 21:05:54

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What Vet is say is to set the timing at 30 degrees advance with engine running at full throttle, about 1980 rpm, but at least 1800 rpm. Often referred to as high idle speed in service manuals. If dist is in good shape then the timing will be very close to top dead center at low idle speed of about 450 rpm.

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pete 23

01-22-2013 10:27:18

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 Re: FARMALL 460 Stalling Issue in reply to pete 23, 01-21-2013 21:05:54  
Not really. The critical timing of any engine is the rpm the engine will be running when it is developing full power. So, forget about timing to where it runs best at low idle as that could get you in big trouble when it is under a load with detonation or just lack of power. Put your timing light on it, mark the pulley so you can see the 30 degree mark and top dead center mark. Now, wind that engine up and adjust the timing by turning distributor until the mark is lined up with that 30 degree mark. Then, idle the engine down, take a look and it should be timed close to top dead center, if the distributor is working properly. If it is not, you should repair dist but if is is close, just forget about it. A car is no different, except auto mfgs rarely give you good marks and higher rpm test points so most just time them at low idle. Modern autos are totally different because that computer is reading several inputs for speed, load, detonation etc and the computer then adjusting timing as it is programed to do. I will also add that most any engine will idle better with slightly advanced timing but then the loaded timing will be wrong and starting will be more difficult. The 30 degree advance is for a factory 460 gasoline engine and if that engine has been modified is not necessarily the correct setting, but I assume it is still stock.

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01-22-2013 10:44:28

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 Re: FARMALL 460 Stalling Issue in reply to pete 23, 01-22-2013 10:27:18  
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Hi Pete and thanks for the education.
I set the timing for 30 degree advanced at 1900 RPM and then checked it back down at Idle speed of 450 RPM and it was real close to TDC. I think all of that is OK. And yes...this tractor is stock as far as I can tell.
If I gun the throttle it immediately dies, if I slowly bring it up, it doesn't seem to have a problem. But if I put load on it at the higher RPM is will die, but I'm assuming that's because the governor is stepping in and basically gunning the throttle. I think it's still pointing back at the carburetor.....


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pete 23

01-22-2013 16:26:34

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 Re: FARMALL 460 Stalling Issue in reply to RJG, 01-22-2013 10:44:28  
Oh the fun of a 460 gas. Can't tell you a lot more from here but they can be a bugger. IH came with a zenith carburetor with a vacuum operated accelerator pump to over come the stumble on that tractor. Yours sounds like way over board though. If a quick pull on the choke while you gun it will get you up to speed I would say it is in the manifold heat riser. Like Vet already pointed out that stove inside gets full of carbon and then hot exhaust cannot circulate around the stove. Temporally tie the heat riser to the straight up position and see if that helps. If so, you need a new spring. To clean out the manifold you have to split it, those four bolts. There was some changes made in the carburetors, from double to single venturi which includes a different jet or two. Some times venturi's get changed but not the jets. Really hard to tell from here. I have drilled a quite a few main jets out for the ethanol fuel but that is a touchy job as you only go a few thousands of an inch at a time. Need it on a dyno or constant stationary load to do those kind of things.

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01-22-2013 18:59:31

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 Re: FARMALL 460 Stalling Issue in reply to pete 23, 01-22-2013 16:26:34  
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A quick pull on the choke will get the engine up to speed, but put load on the engine and it will very quickly die.
A question about the heat riser.....once the engine is warmed up I'd assume it's supposed to be in the fully open position, so shouldn't the engine run properly at that point even if the riser was missing? It would just take a little longer for the intake manifold to get warm. Or is the flap doing something to direct the heat flow even when it's in the fully open position? Is the riser only there to help things along until it's all nice and toasty warm? Then the spring slowly pulls it back out of the way and everything is supposed to work fine?
My carburetor is the single venturi variety with no accelerator pump.
Thanks for the input...


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pete 23

01-23-2013 10:24:24

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 Re: FARMALL 460 Stalling Issue in reply to RJG, 01-22-2013 18:59:31  
The heat riser will normally stay in heat on position, counter weight straight up and down, until very well warmed up and then and only then will it move forward if it has a good spring. In other words, like pulling a plow it will lay down. Yard work, probably stay in up right position all day long. Who knows what condition that valve inside is. May be half burned off so it is not directing heat to the stove. That is why I always take those manifolds apart when I have the head off. Flat raters won't mess with all that extra grief and work. It may have never been apart in it's life. Like I said, if you had it on a dyno and it actually worked well under load, then you could say with some certaincy carb is ok and cold puttering around work would be manifold problem. Remember, an engine never really warms up without a load. I could go on all day about those sputtering 460's. We had a customer, fairly new tractor, maybe 7 or 8 years old. He even put on a new intake manifold to over come the coughing. Then him and another customer traded tractors. Other one was diesel. They both wanted to keep their own power train so they had me do a mid section, cross switch. So, fuel tanks etc stayed with original tractor. When the guy who had the diesel came in and picked up the gas to take it home, we were on lunch break. He starts it and proceeds to take off, cough, cough, kills it, we just laughed. Welcome to a 460 gas.

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01-26-2013 17:05:22

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 Re: FARMALL 460 Stalling Issue in reply to pete 23, 01-23-2013 10:24:24  
Just an update on things with the 460. I had the carb off one more time. This time I cleaned it and ran a wire through all of the passages, and I visually inspected everthing and there are definitely NO blockages in there. I set the float level to 1 5/16" (it was just about there anyway), and set the main jet to 5 turns out. I also drained the gas tank, removed the sediment bowl and gas line. The sediment bowl and filter screen in the top of it were very clean. The screen that goes into the carb. was spotless. I purchased and put in premium grade gasoline (93 Octaine I think) and I put an extra turn on the manifold heater spring. I couldn't think of anything else to do, so I turned on the gas and fired it up and guess what? It's exactly the same as it was before......stalls under load or if you gun the throttle. I did notice with the manifold heater flap staying closed a lot longer, that when I gun the throttle (by pulling the choke partially out) the external counterbalance weight moves as if exhaust gases are pushing on it from the inside. I think that would indicate the flap is definitely still there.
My conclusion is.....there has to be something wrong with the carb. I don't see any signs of modifications or alterations inside of it, but who knows what might have been done to it or swapped out of it over the years. I'm going to replace it with another carburetor. That way I'll know for sure. I don't see any other options right now.

I'll let you all know how it turns out....good or bad.

Thanks for all of the suggestions and advice.


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02-13-2013 13:33:08

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 Re: FARMALL 460 Stalling Issue in reply to RJG, 01-26-2013 17:05:22  
Wanted to give you all an udate on my 460's condition. Finally figured out what the issue was with my stalling tractor and it was indeed the carburator. As it turns out somewhere in this tractors past someone decided to modifiy and improve the carburator design. They removed the smaller inner section of the venturi. I didn't see or notice it because they apparently went to great lengths to file and polish the inside wall of the venturi passage way smooth, leaving no trace of the removed center section.

Sure had me fooled......but now with the new venturi installed it works like a champ....almost.

Another question for all of you experts. The governor isn't working correctly. If I gun the throttle, the motor doesn't keeps varying the speed up and down, and up and down, for quite a while. I've had the governor off and cleaned it up. There's not much to it. The bearings look pretty good, and there's not a lot of slop in any of the moving internal parts. It appears that everything inside is moving freely and doing what it's supposed to do.
I'm wondering if the external spring could be the culprit? It looks good and doesn't seem to be fatigued, but I've ordered one to replace it just in case.
What do you all think about the governor?



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01-21-2013 21:15:08

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 Re: FARMALL 460 Stalling Issue in reply to pete 23, 01-21-2013 21:05:54  
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Hi Pete;

Thanks for clarifying that for me. In other words if I set the timing to top dead center at the low idle speed, which I can do by turning the Distributor for max RPM on the engine, then if all else is good, at the high idle speed of 1800 to 1980rpm I should see about a 30 degree advance on the timing.
This is very different from timing a conventional car engine.


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