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No valve seals found in IH 404 prior to rebuild.

R

RandyDowdy

Member
I was quite surprised to find no trace of a valve seal in this engine. The seats seem good, no play at all, nice and tight. I'm sending the head out in the AM to get the valves ground and head surfaced. But what type of valve seal should I put back? The auto type umbrella seal? If they are good in 8000 rpm engines, they ought to be fine here. Or does Case/IH make a seas for this C135 engine? Internals were great, I am putting rods/mains/rings/gaskets in it and putting it back together early next week, unless parts delivery runs into Christmas.

Thanx in advance!
 
(quoted from post at 22:46:41 12/21/12) I was quite surprised to find no trace of a valve seal in this engine. The seats seem good, no play at all, nice and tight. I'm sending the head out in the AM to get the valves ground and head surfaced. But what type of valve seal should I put back? The auto type umbrella seal? If they are good in 8000 rpm engines, they ought to be fine here. Or does Case/IH make a seas for this C135 engine? Internals were great, I am putting rods/mains/rings/gaskets in it and putting it back together early next week, unless parts delivery runs into Christmas.

Thanx in advance!
Click to expand...

Your best bet is to take the head, with the valves, springs, everything still assembled, to the machine shop and let the machinist fix whatever needs fixin'. If he thinks it needs valve seals, he'll install them.
 

I'm sure he will. But if he asks me what type of seals I want, I would like to know what other people are using, and why they are choosing them. I don't like to spend money and not know I'm doing the best thing for the money.
 

Thank you. I can find nothing on the piston #, 375800 R1. It has CAM Z16 under it, with IH on the side, and 4095 on the side. I found the number with R2 at the end on the net, but nothing with R1. Bore looks standard, 3.25. I really appreciate this.
 
Didn't come with any. The R2 piston should be a replacement for the R1. IH just made some little change or improvement in the part and advanced the suffix.
 

Thanx! I just wanted to make sure it was still stock bore. There is a D on the top of the piston, but no sizes. Again, I measured the bore and it looks to still be 3.25, so I should be OK. Thank you! I appreciate the help.
 
I opt for the PC Teflon rig seals that meter oil and are more or less standard on modern engines. They are good for a reason. Jim
 
If it was mine I would put perfect circle seals or
equivelent on it. A worn rocker arm and shaft
assembly throws a lot more oil over the top of them
valves than it did when it was new. You will see it
smoke at start up if it needs seals but does not
have them. Umbrella was a economy version for
manufactures to get by with. If you look at the
Neuss, (German) engines you will see a good seal on
all valves.
 
They might, but since it was not "OEM" I think each dealer can have it their way on what they supply.
I use components by size, not original application. Jim
 
The guides will most likely have to be machined to
get a flat on top and maybe reduce outside diameter.
Any automotive machine shop should be able to come
up with the specs and a good seal. I no longer have
that information myself. I did a lot of machining
valve guides back in the day as they say. It is
real simple. That and the height of the machined
guide is what is important.
 
(quoted from post at 23:45:21 12/21/12)
I'm sure he will. But if he asks me what type of seals I want, I would like to know what other people are using, and why they are choosing them. I don't like to spend money and not know I'm doing the best thing for the money.
Click to expand...

The machinist should have previous experience and will already know which brand and style works best.

My opinion. If there are no valve seals on it now, and the parts manual does not call out for any, then you do not want any. It is entirely possible to get a tight enough oil seal that the valve stems and guides will suffer from insufficient lubrication and could quite possibly sieze up. I've witnessed it myself.
 

Oil was coming by the guides though, and I don't have the money at this time to put new guides in. I think he'll put seals in, he's getting the head in about an hour.
 
(quoted from post at 18:02:54 12/22/12)
Oil was coming by the guides though, and I don't have the money at this time to put new guides in. I think he'll put seals in, he's getting the head in about an hour.
Click to expand...

The valve guides are extremely important. Replace the guides and you will NOT need the valve seals. In fact, if you do not replace the worn valve guides, you are just wasting your time and throwing a huge chunk of money.

DO IT RIGHT the first time and you will never need to do it again.
 
(quoted from post at 15:36:09 12/22/12)
(quoted from post at 18:02:54 12/22/12)
Oil was coming by the guides though, and I don't have the money at this time to put new guides in. I think he'll put seals in, he's getting the head in about an hour.
Click to expand...

The valve guides are extremely important. Replace the guides and you will NOT need the valve seals. In fact, if you do not replace the worn valve guides, you are just wasting your time and throwing a huge chunk of money.

DO IT RIGHT the first time and you will never need to do it again.
Click to expand...

The head is being surfaced and valves ground. Machinist said guides were in good shape. And he has seals in stock. Maybe the rings were the only problem. I hope so. Can't wait to get it back together. Thanx. RD
 
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