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| RandyDowdy
12-21-2012 13:46:41
99.194.30.72
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I was quite surprised to find no trace of a valve seal in this engine. The seats seem good, no play at all, nice and tight. I'm sending the head out in the AM to get the valves ground and head surfaced. But what type of valve seal should I put back? The auto type umbrella seal? If they are good in 8000 rpm engines, they ought to be fine here. Or does Case/IH make a seas for this C135 engine? Internals were great, I am putting rods/mains/rings/gaskets in it and putting it back together early next week, unless parts delivery runs into Christmas.
Thanx in advance!
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| pete 23
12-21-2012 15:48:57
74.32.238.2
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Re: No valve seals found in IH 404 prior to rebuild. in reply to RandyDowdy, 12-21-2012 13:46:41
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| If it was mine I would put perfect circle seals or
equivelent on it. A worn rocker arm and shaft
assembly throws a lot more oil over the top of them
valves than it did when it was new. You will see it
smoke at start up if it needs seals but does not
have them. Umbrella was a economy version for
manufactures to get by with. If you look at the
Neuss, (German) engines you will see a good seal on
all valves.
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| RandyDowdy
12-21-2012 15:59:26
99.194.30.72
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Re: No valve seals found in IH 404 prior to rebuild. in reply to pete 23, 12-21-2012 15:48:57
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| Will they work without machining the heads? Any part # I can order with? Thank you so much!
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| pete 23
12-21-2012 18:38:50
74.32.238.2
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Re: No valve seals found in IH 404 prior to rebuild. in reply to RandyDowdy, 12-21-2012 15:59:26
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| The guides will most likely have to be machined to
get a flat on top and maybe reduce outside diameter.
Any automotive machine shop should be able to come
up with the specs and a good seal. I no longer have
that information myself. I did a lot of machining
valve guides back in the day as they say. It is
real simple. That and the height of the machined
guide is what is important.
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| RandyDowdy
12-21-2012 20:27:52
99.194.30.72
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Re: No valve seals found in IH 404 prior to rebuild. in reply to pete 23, 12-21-2012 18:38:50
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| Thank you.
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| RandyDowdy
12-21-2012 15:53:33
99.194.30.72
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Re: No valve seals found in IH 404 prior to rebuild. in reply to pete 23, 12-21-2012 15:48:57
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| This is the information I am seeking. Where would they be bought ? Thank you so much!
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| D Slater
12-21-2012 15:15:06
184.15.46.232
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Re: No valve seals found in IH 404 prior to rebuild. in reply to RandyDowdy, 12-21-2012 13:46:41
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| Didn't come with any. The R2 piston should be a replacement for the R1. IH just made some little change or improvement in the part and advanced the suffix.
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| RandyDowdy
12-21-2012 15:18:12
99.194.30.72
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Re: No valve seals found in IH 404 prior to rebuild. in reply to D Slater, 12-21-2012 15:15:06
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| Thanx! I just wanted to make sure it was still stock bore. There is a D on the top of the piston, but no sizes. Again, I measured the bore and it looks to still be 3.25, so I should be OK. Thank you! I appreciate the help.
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| stumper
12-21-2012 15:01:19
24.247.104.181
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Re: No valve seals found in IH 404 prior to rebuild. in reply to RandyDowdy, 12-21-2012 13:46:41
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| my books show what appears to be an unbrella style seal , stumper
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| RandyDowdy
12-21-2012 15:07:08
99.194.30.72
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Re: No valve seals found in IH 404 prior to rebuild. in reply to stumper, 12-21-2012 15:01:19
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| Thank you. I can find nothing on the piston #, 375800 R1. It has CAM Z16 under it, with IH on the side, and 4095 on the side. I found the number with R2 at the end on the net, but nothing with R1. Bore looks standard, 3.25. I really appreciate this.
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| MisterT
12-21-2012 14:14:28
216.248.71.226
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Re: No valve seals found in IH 404 prior to rebuild. in reply to RandyDowdy, 12-21-2012 13:46:41
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| Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see
Your best bet is to take the head, with the valves, springs, everything still assembled, to the machine shop and let the machinist fix whatever needs fixin'. If he thinks it needs valve seals, he'll install them.
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| RandyDowdy
12-21-2012 14:45:21
99.194.30.72
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Re: No valve seals found in IH 404 prior to rebuild. in reply to MisterT, 12-21-2012 14:14:28
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| I'm sure he will. But if he asks me what type of seals I want, I would like to know what other people are using, and why they are choosing them. I don't like to spend money and not know I'm doing the best thing for the money.
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| MisterT
12-22-2012 06:15:55
216.248.71.226
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Re: No valve seals found in IH 404 prior to rebuild. in reply to RandyDowdy, 12-21-2012 14:45:21
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The machinist should have previous experience and will already know which brand and style works best.
My opinion. If there are no valve seals on it now, and the parts manual does not call out for any, then you do not want any. It is entirely possible to get a tight enough oil seal that the valve stems and guides will suffer from insufficient lubrication and could quite possibly sieze up. I've witnessed it myself.
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| RandyDowdy
12-22-2012 09:02:54
99.194.30.72
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Re: No valve seals found in IH 404 prior to rebuild. in reply to MisterT, 12-22-2012 06:15:55
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| Oil was coming by the guides though, and I don't have the money at this time to put new guides in. I think he'll put seals in, he's getting the head in about an hour.
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| MisterT
12-22-2012 14:36:09
216.248.71.226
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Re: No valve seals found in IH 404 prior to rebuild. in reply to RandyDowdy, 12-22-2012 09:02:54
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| Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see
The valve guides are extremely important. Replace the guides and you will NOT need the valve seals. In fact, if you do not replace the worn valve guides, you are just wasting your time and throwing a huge chunk of money.
DO IT RIGHT the first time and you will never need to do it again.
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| RandyDowdy
12-22-2012 19:01:31
99.194.30.72
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Re: No valve seals found in IH 404 prior to rebuild. in reply to MisterT, 12-22-2012 14:36:09
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| Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see
The head is being surfaced and valves ground. Machinist said guides were in good shape. And he has seals in stock. Maybe the rings were the only problem. I hope so. Can't wait to get it back together. Thanx. RD
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| Janicholson
12-21-2012 15:46:45
74.60.94.18
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Re: No valve seals found in IH 404 prior to rebuild. in reply to RandyDowdy, 12-21-2012 14:45:21
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| I opt for the PC Teflon rig seals that meter oil and are more or less standard on modern engines. They are good for a reason. Jim
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| RandyDowdy
12-21-2012 15:48:48
99.194.30.72
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Re: No valve seals found in IH 404 prior to rebuild. in reply to Janicholson, 12-21-2012 15:46:45
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| Is that what IH/Case will sell ? Thanx!
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| Janicholson
12-21-2012 17:28:07
74.60.94.18
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Re: No valve seals found in IH 404 prior to rebuild. in reply to RandyDowdy, 12-21-2012 15:48:48
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| They might, but since it was not "OEM" I think each dealer can have it their way on what they supply.
I use components by size, not original application. Jim
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