C123 9 vs 14 bolt discussion

Hugh,
Before I start I want to preface this with the fact that I appreciate your posts on here as much as anyone. I enjoy reading your stories and memories, and am grateful for the practical knowlege and experience you offer. I believe we are here for the same reasons; to learn, and to share what we've learned so as to hopefully help a few others along. That is the spirit in which this is offered.

For anyone who doesn't have a clue what were talking about the question is whether the C123 was ever updated to use a 14 bolt head as the I&T manual infers. Illustration captions and paragraph #26 on page 14 of manual IH-201 can infer that the C123 was switched over at SN 65001 to a 14 bolt head as all the C135's had. My findings have differed and that is what this is over. Hugh has stated that while working on his 140 he remembers it as having a 14 bolt head, and I have been trying to convince him it's worth a second look



I decided to move this from from Scott#2's thread a couple days ago to a different title,
http://www.ytmag.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=farmall&th=625381

>>And Hugh, that is definately the later 140/240 series block as you can see from the flat in the lower left picture. Count his head bolt positions... Just a gentle reminder that the I&T manual has an error.

>>Stan: If the IT manual is wrong, you tell us what is correct. Bear in mind I know it's between engine number 56651 and 103230. seeing is believing.




Hugh,
I was over looking at BobG's tractor today (Bob, I posted an update for you on your clutch thread several pages back) and took these pictures as it is a good case for this discussion. It is a very late 140, 1974 by SN, is a factory 12V system with engine SN-132727 and casting number 367825. It is still a 9 bolt head.

<IMG SRC="https://photos.yesterdaystractors.com/gallery/pieces/v4723.jpg">
Block Casting Number 367825

<IMG SRC="https://photos.yesterdaystractors.com/gallery/pieces/v4724.jpg">
Engine SN C123-132727

<IMG SRC="https://photos.yesterdaystractors.com/gallery/pieces/v4725.jpg">
Left Side of Engine

<IMG SRC="https://photos.yesterdaystractors.com/gallery/pieces/v4726.jpg">
9 Head bolts, 4 visable, 5 under the valve cover



Following is a repost of the info I gave you a couple years ago, I edited it a little to try and make sure things are clear, if it's not please ask:
http://www.ytmag.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=farmall&th=475475


Below is what I have found from time in the parts books (CDROM) and actually pulling several motors apart.
---From the parts CDROM, the C123 designated block starts on the hundred series with C123-501.

C123 engine SN's 501-36000 as used in 100/200 has block 354898 and head 251172/355046*
C123 36001-65000 used in 130/230 has block 366204 and head 355046/366299*
C123 65001-up as used in 140/240 has block 367825 and head 366299
notes:
(*) all head casting numbers are gas(no distilates), and all are 9 bolts. Head change dates are unclear from parts book, but 251172 is as used on C/Super C, 355046 has larger valves as in 366299. I still haven't seen a 355046 yet.
- all C123's (and C135's from the 330/340) show the same head gasket, part number 366300
- new water pump design (meaning new block with the squared off front) at SN-65001
- all heads listed as 9 bolts, with a split at SN-39400 as head studs changed to head bolts.
- C135 as used in the 330/340 shows 367727 block, 366299 head with 9 bolts and head gasket 366300(same as C123's)
- C135 as used in the 404 shows 375596 block, 379240 head with 14 bolts and head gasket 383525(this is the only reference to a different head gasket which would be required)
- C135 in 404 also shows different crankshaft/rods/bearings/rear main seal retainer.
---From Engines I have torn down:
- a 230 (engine SN-39465) (block casting number verifies as above, can't read the head casting number but has large valves, looks same as 140 below) 9 bolt head;
- a 140 (eng SN-101390) (block casting verifies as above, head casting 366299). Casting date 5-25-H (1962) tractor SN-20874, 9 bolt head;
- a C135 (eng SN-128346) power unit block (casting date'T', with late style crank/rods/rear main seal), 14 bolt head.
- also had a 240 U motor here a year ago with 'E' (1959) casting date, block and head numbers matched the 140 motor.
This is how I've concluded that the C123's are all 9 bolt heads and and the C135's are where the split occurred
Basically if you look between the manifold and the valve cover, on the 9 bolt head you will only see 4 bolts, while on the 14 bolt head you will see 7 bolts

Stan: I wish you had done this yesterday. I had the fuel tank off 140, cleaning some crud off the inside walls. It hadn't really caused problems yet, however I was getting rust sediment in the bowl.

Since you insist I will take another look, especially since you pointed out seeing 4 or 7 head bolts. Last time you didn't suggest making it quite that easy, and I wasn't about to take the valve cover off a perfectly good working tractor just to prove a point on YT. TOO much Scot in me for that.

Stan: Your right, just went to shop and since mufler, hood, etc. were all off yesterday, everything came apart very easy. 4 bolts is what I see.

I've never professed to being an engine man, probably have done more around engines in the past 5 years than in the previous 60. Even that has never amounted to more than adjusting valves, changing a head gasket, distributor drive gears. Prior to that it was spark plugs, points, timing advance and governors.

Now, I have a question for you and between this and my IT manual, this is probably what threw me back in 2003-04. When I got this 140, rad, water pump and the entire electrical system were toast. I recored the rad, had CaseIH rebuild the pump and went with 12 volt alternator. The 12 volt was only because I have a 12 motor on an implement. After finishing all that, I was getting exhaust puffs as though valves were open when they shouldn't be open. I had adjusted valves a couple times before, thus decided to see if I could take the puffing out of 140. I did, but had to adjust valves to C-135 specs as per the IT manual, .014 on intake an until I got to .018 on exhaust valves I still had the puff. The gap on exhaust valves still remains between .018 and .020. IT calls for .014 both intake and exhaust on all C-123 applications and .014 intake, .020 on exhaust for C-135 in 404 and 2404. Has the IT manual more mistakes than just the 65000 engine serial split.

I'd like your comments, bear in mind my 140 had been parked in a heated warehouse close to 15 years before we got it. My son knew it was there and tried several times to buy it. The 3 brothers that owned it had not been able to get it going in 15 years, even told us they had 3 different pro mechanics work on it. My neighbor and I went there armed with fully charged heavy 12 volt battery, fresh gas, points, condenser, rotor, cap, plugs, etc. We had it going in less than 5 minutes, and kept it going long enough to load plow, disk and tractor. I never did get it going again until I did all the above. After I got it running well, my judgement, this tractor had less than 500 hours lifetime. I base this on the number of new tractors I had lifetime. I have problaly worked the tractor 250 hour since, and no more valve puffing. Your comments are apreciated.

A superb job of researching and analyzing the situation without doing disassembly.

Mornin Stan,
All I wanted to add is this has been a very interesting post and have enjoyed the read ! Stan I thought I would mention that I have gotten some great advice from Bob G on another tractor forum in fact I have gotten great help from him rebuilding an old Dearborn plow ! I have two offsets and enjoyed all the info you have provided here !

Thanks,
scotty

Hugh,
I don't qualify as an expert engine builder, just sharing what I've found and what works for me. Engine tuning I still consider more of an art than a science(still do a lot of head scratchin), so if it's a working tractor that I don't want to continually mess with (and risk burning a valve), I set them both at about 0.020 cold. That comes from advice from someone? years back noting the same thing you noticed, that they did loosen up the specs in later years, and that I am setting them cold vs hot. I realize I'm throwing away a little intake duration and lift, but don't loose sleep over it, and numbers are easy to remember. If I am in an educational/experimental mood I will sometimes try tighter specs. Haven't done it yet but have considered following ChadS's advice on setting them with the compression gauge on an experimental engine.

One other note is that you switched to a 12V system. Did you add a ballast resistor or change to a 3 ohm (across the primaries) coil? A 6V coil would work but can break down as it heats up from the extra current and burns up your points faster...
Hope that helps,
Stan(VA).

Stan: I used to buy resistors, small ohn lamps and diodes for my 12 volt conversions. I had sooo0 much trouble with that, always running buying new pieces, I gave up. I went to CaseIH got 12 volt coil not requiring external resistor, and I have a push button on dash to excite the alternator. My first conversion was 130 to 12 volt, seemed like every month I was buying something new. My second conversion was a 6 volt alternator on SA. Didn't need to change the coil or install a resistor. No one could tell me what to use for lamp or diodes, thus I did that one push button for exciting alternator. Within a year I changed the 130 to push button excite. that was 1992-93 and they have been trouble free ever since, with the exception of the time a trucker hauling these tractors left 130 switch on with a new 720 cranking amp battery. I think the harness was bad and that cooked everything including amp gauge. When it came to 140, it was 12 volt coil from CaseIH and the push button for excite. No need of these old tractors breaking down in the field, wont start in morning, etc. I thought one has to spend a $100,000. for a tractor you can count on not being reliable.

"C123 65001-up as used in 140/240 has block 367825 and head 366299"

Run into a problem installing a sleeve and piston kit into a C123 engine with a 367825R2 casting number.
Engine was manufactured in 1965.

The sleeves that were removed were the "long" type, 7.065 inches However, never measured the diameter at the bottom at the seal, assuming all "long" sleeves had the larger size seal diameter.


The new sleeves with the 3.436" diameter at the seal would not go in.
Measured the diameter of seal hole -- 3.311 !!! uh-oh.

Lots of internet research of aftermarket kits and the CaseIH parts site yielded no answers as to why a very late model of the C123 engine would possess the small seal hole.

Next step was to engage the services of a CaseIH mechanic. He ran through his CaseIH books and couldn't come up with a definitive conclusion. He theorized that since so few (relatively) of these engines were built the aftermarket never put together a kit for the engine. CaseIH may have a piston/sleeve kit, but it would be anorexia of the wallet.

He inspected the sleeves I had removed (because the engine was stuck) and determined that the engine probably had less than 500 hours on it and in all likelihood a light honing would clean up the sleeves nicely, then I could install the firecrater pistons from the new Clevite kit.

After honing a quick check of ring gap indicated the decision to hone the sleeves was sound because all the ring gaps were within specs.

When someone tells you there are only 2 types of sleeves for the C-123 engine, you can tell them it just ain't so.