have i been wrong all my life?

ericlb

Well-known Member
there is a nice M in the photo ads it says rebuilt engine with 34 hp on the drawbar and 39 on the belt pulley now i thought a M was a 40 to 45 hp tractor? i have a ford jubilee in great shape and its advertized as being 31 hp, i grew up with grandpa's '49 M, and i can tell you that M would pull that ford inside out, then make change with it too , as far as i know grandpas M was completely stock they did overhaul the engine a time or 2 in the 30 years it was a working tractor but knowing my grandpa he wouldn't have gone for any "hot rod nonsense" so im pretty sure it wa put back stock each time
 
Nebraska Tractor Test 328 shows the M produced 33 hp at the drawbar and 36 hp on the pto on gas. One probable reason why the M felt more powerful is the fact it produces a ton of torque compared to a ford. While HP numbers may be similar, the amount of torque a motor produces is what really gets the work done. It's also possible that the motor had an overbore kit or fire crater pistons that hopped it up a bit. That's my 2 cents.
 
According to external_link , Here is what is listed M 25 drawbar and 31-33 on Belt MD 33 drawbar and 38 on belt, Super M drawbar 44 and 47 on belt. Hope this clears things up.
 
I would say tractor data is a joke how can 25hp drawbar pull 3 14 plow like they did. Tons of those "data" site are full of crap poor info and the list goes on. Even the H has more HP than 25.
 
We put 2 bone stock M's on the same dyno one after the other and with very little playing we got 48 out of one and 49 out of the other. Then we pulled the air filter pipe off and left it hooked to the carb and that one hit 52.
 
The factory HP for the M was 34.44 drawbar, 39.23 PTO as in Guy Fays Data Book, and are about the same as in the IH literature I used to have in the 50's, wish I still had it. SM is 42 drawbar, 47.5 PTO, all numbers are for gasoline engines, dist/kero somewhat less.
 
(quoted from post at 15:16:27 12/02/12) I would say tractor data is a joke how can 25hp drawbar pull 3 14 plow like they did. Tons of those "data" site are full of crap poor info and the list goes on. Even the H has more HP than 25.

Except in this case, "tractor-data" is correct. The horesepower ratings given are NOT actual engine horsepower ratings, but rather the ratings measured where the actual WORK will be taking place. You can go out and buy a garden tractor with a Briggs and Stratton engine that is rated at 25 horsepower, but I guarantee that garden tractor will not do the same work as a Farmall H, and as a further for instance, Before we even had tractors, farmers used horses, and just two big old workhorses were able to pull a one bottom plow, so why would a 25 horsepower Farmall H not be able to pull a 2-14s plow?
 
Myself i have four ratings on a tractor, ( Runs Excelent) , ( runs good ) , (runs fair), (Runs like Shittzzs.) and it all depends on the Dyno . I have seen the same model M & W dyno's used on the same tractor and give different H.P. readings . One guy has one and it is like the local VO ag school and just like the J D dealer 's and we had all of them setting side by side and hooked the same tractor to each and got three different reading Leo's gave the lowest the shcool's was higher and the Deere Dealers was the highest by 15 H.P. So what one was correct , what do you want to believe. same tractor three different dyno's ?????????.
 
You go back farther and the 15-30 was rated at the 15 horse on drawbar and it would pull the 3 bottom and later it was rerated at 22-?? and was a 4 plow tractor.
 
Think the only test of a M gasoline tractor at Nebraska was in 1939 and before they officially were making a gas M. Shorly before IH quit making M tractors they came out with some parts that they claimed would make about 4.5 horsepower more. 3-7/8 aluminum pistons a caburetor change over kit and some other items. Of coarse later more power up things came along.
IH didn't tune the engines for maximum power. They were set to work long hours at full load if needed. When dynos started being more common IH sent out bulletins warning dealers about just setting the engines to full power.
 
It's hard to get accurate readings with the equipment they use and the relatively small numbers being measured. The PTO dynos are only good for relative comparisons of tractors on _THAT_ dyno. (As Tractor Vet illustrates) A 3hp error is 10% on a 30 horse tractor and 10% error either way is unacceptable from a scientific standpoint.

Weight, weight distribution, engine torque and powertrain momentum all contribute to pulling performance.

At the temple tractor show I always see a crowd gathered around the dyno as they "test" various tractors. I went and looked at it during the lunch break and noticed that with no tractor hooked up at all, the battered looking needle on the gauge was showing 10 hp. How meaningful was any reading on that dyno? Pretty worthless if you ask me.

Attention to detail can make one run better than the other. You can have a 281 with propane head and this and that, but if the valve job is poor or if the rings aren't sealing it won't do you much good. Carefully assembled and tuned stock parts can make a big difference.
 
(quoted from post at 09:20:51 12/02/12) You go back farther and the 15-30 was rated at the 15 horse on drawbar and it would pull the 3 bottom and later it was rerated at 22-?? and was a 4 plow tractor.


you really cant compare pre 39 egines to those of an H or M. they made their power in two different ways. heavy flywheels, long strokes and big bores make for torque monster engines with fairly low HP in regards to thier CID. 15-30's and 22-36's got power from the momentum of a 100 pound flywheel and heavy internal engine parts. one other thing is that the CID of a 22-36 was 425 cubic inches.
 
2 reasons the M will out pull the NAA. Weight. The M was 300+ pound heavier than the NAA without ballist and over a ton more with. Then add in the above mentioned torque. The NAA has a short stroke compared to the M. Long stroke producre more torque. Weight plus torque will always win the day. That will include running PTO/belt implements too on the torque.

Rick
 
It has to be personal opinion too. Go to tractorhouse and type in any model tractor. You could list all the H's and see anything from 25-40, depending on the day. I think a lot of it is whatever the owner wants it to be.
 
Weight and traction. We had three Ford LCG industrial tractors at the gulf course, a 4 cylinder 2000 diesel, a 2110, 3 cylinder gas and a 231 another 3 cylinder gas, The Farmall H I had at the farm would out pull any of them and the 2000 and 2110 with ease. Why? the turf tires were made not to tear up the grass hence they had no traction.
 
Pull is not power. You can get any amount of pull out of any size engine if you gear it down far enough and give it enough weight and big enough tires. My 544 can pull anything my 560 can and then some. Why? 18.4 tires with 900lb of CaCl solution in each. Yet I"d rather use the 560 for field work. Why? Because it does more acres per hour with a smaller implement than the 544 can with a bigger one. Power equals force times speed. "Pull" is just force. A 1hp winch can outpull your H but you wouldn"t want to plow with it.
 
(quoted from post at 14:22:39 12/02/12) Pull is not power. You can get any amount of pull out of any size engine if you gear it down far enough and give it enough weight and big enough tires. My 544 can pull anything my 560 can and then some. Why? 18.4 tires with 900lb of CaCl solution in each. Yet I"d rather use the 560 for field work. Why? Because it does more acres per hour with a smaller implement than the 544 can with a bigger one. Power equals force times speed. "Pull" is just force. A 1hp winch can outpull your H but you wouldn"t want to plow with it.

Aw come on John......get that winch out and try it.....don't foget to post pictures.....LOL.
 

Go to the Nebraska tests and look at the drawbar bull as compared to the drawbar HP... there seems to be no direct correlation. I believe the pull weight means more than the Hp rating. I imagine the pull weight takes into consideration the weight, gear ratios and maybe other things. Ford tractors were geared pretty high and with a 4 speed, ratios were spread more. IH Ms and Hs had a 5 speed, JD B, A and Gs and Olivers had 6 speeds ... these things all entered into how they pulled, as well as the torque rating.
 
Can"t say I"ve tried it or even seen any pictures, but it"s said that plowing was sometimes done in Germany and England around the beginning of the previous century by using a large steam engine to pull a gang of plows across a field with cables.

As to seeing if the 544 can outpull a winch, I"d have to find something to rig the winch to that the 544 couldn"t pull out of the ground. I"m not sure I own anything that stout since the old elm died.
Plowing with Cables
 
(quoted from post at 08:16:27 12/02/12) I would say tractor data is a joke how can 25hp drawbar pull 3 14 plow like they did. Tons of those "data" site are full of crap poor info and the list goes on. Even the H has more HP than 25.

I would not discount external_link. No doubt they got their horsepower figures from the Nebraska Tractor Test results.

Test #328 says the gasoline M produced a maximum 36.07hp on the belt and a maximum of 26.23hp on the drawbar.

Test #333 says the gas H produced a max 19.84hp on the drawbar.

Now, I will say that the almost every H and M has had the engine rebuilt at least once in the past with thinner sleeves and larger pistons thereby giving the engine more cubic inch displacement and thus more horsepower. That is why the M of today can produce 40hp because the engine has been rebuilt to Super M specs.
 
my M dyno'd 42 hp last summer at SWOSTA. this year, with the turbo, it should touch 80+.
248ci, pretty much worn out. 1950 model yr
 
(quoted from post at 16:54:24 12/02/12)
Go to the Nebraska tests and look at the drawbar bull as compared to the drawbar HP... there seems to be no direct correlation. I believe the pull weight means more than the Hp rating. I imagine the pull weight takes into consideration the weight, gear ratios and maybe other things. Ford tractors were geared pretty high and with a 4 speed, ratios were spread more. IH Ms and Hs had a 5 speed, JD B, A and Gs and Olivers had 6 speeds ... these things all entered into how they pulled, as well as the torque rating.

Horsepower is the product of the actual force the tractor is exerting on the drawbar times the speed in which it is being pulled. A tractor can actually pull a greater load at a lower speed and produce less horsepower than if it pulled a smaller load at a faster speed.

For example, in tractor test #328 the Farmall M gas tractor produced a 100% maximum drawbar horsepower of 33.05 while exerting a drawbar pull of 4060 pounds and traveling 3.05 mph. Yet it produced a maximum 4233 lbs. pull on the drawbar while traveling 2.17 mph and produced 24.49 horespower.

(quoted from post at 19:25:12 12/02/12) my M dyno'd 42 hp last summer at SWOSTA. this year, with the turbo, it should touch 80+.
248ci, pretty much worn out. 1950 model yr

Do you know for sure your engine is 248ci? Reason I ask is because the M engine came from the IHC factory with a 3.875" bore and cast iron pistons. Most Ms have since been rebuilt with thinner sleeves and 4" aluminum pistons which will give an increase in horsepower. As a matter of fact, ALL new piston/sleeve kits made for the Farmall M today will have 4" aluminum pistons. Also, a lot of the 4" pistons are domed to increase compression and that will increase horsepower too. So, with the 4" pistons you have 264 CID and essentially a Super M engine.
 
All I was doing was talking about the power ratings, not about how they made the power, Rating was still 15 DB HP for 3 bottom and a 10-20 was 10 DB HP for a 2 bottom so you cannot go by ratings.
 
it says here that in nebraska, 34.44 drawbar, and 39.23 belt. a max drawbar pull, 4,233 pounds was also observed. 1981 crestline publishing co. in name of charles wendel
 
If you take the pulling force times the speed in feet/second you will get ft-lb/second.
One hp = 550 ft-lb/s.

Is possible that first gear for an M is slower than first gear for a Jubilee?
 

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