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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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Question for you diesel guys

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John in Pennsylvania

11-22-2012 10:52:39
174.231.11.196



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I posted on here a month ago that I have an international 364 diesel with a BD 154 engine. My problem at the time was when put under load it would blow excessive black smoke. Taking some advice given to me and the age of the machine I figured the injection Pump needed a rebuild. I just installed the rebuilt pump and the tested injectors which passed. My problem still exists. I need some help from you diesel guys to help me with this issue. The tractor idles fine with little to no smoke. When you pull throttle open it makes a plume of Black coal. Also when I take it for a test ride up the road it has little power and smoke black. I tried other things as well such as removing the intake and exhaust manifolds to see if there was any restrictions and the engine ran the same. Please give me some good news this Thanksgiving I could really use it. Thank you and I hope everyone has a great Thanksgiving Day.

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carogator

11-23-2012 16:47:08
205.188.117.74



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to John in Pennsylvania, 11-22-2012 10:52:39  

Try these



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pete 23

11-23-2012 09:08:40
74.32.238.2



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to John in Pennsylvania, 11-22-2012 10:52:39  
You have boiled it down to lack of air in cylinders. If you had restricted fuel return it would not deliver excess fuel as the internals of pump equalize and the pumping plungers will not take on fuel. If you can verify no restrictions right up to the valves them selves with intake and exhaust manifolds off you can forget about that. Next thing would be valve lift and valve timing. You need to verify that the valve timing is correct following procedure in manual, I don't have it on that model. I did see one John Deere tractor that had absolutely no power, smoke was normal for a fully loaded engine and the problem was transmission was over filled about 10 galons, filling the wet clutch flywheel compartment and placed a heavy load on engine when speeded up. But, if you have heavy black smoke with a normal injection pump setting you are just not getting air. If pump is over fueled you could get heavy black smoke from some external load problem in transmission or hydraulics. Not that familiar with that model though.

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pete 23

11-23-2012 09:08:40
74.32.238.2



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to John in Pennsylvania, 11-22-2012 10:52:39  
You have boiled it down to lack of air in cylinders. If you had restricted fuel return it would not deliver excess fuel as the internals of pump equalize and the pumping plungers will not take on fuel. If you can verify no restrictions right up to the valves them selves with intake and exhaust manifolds off you can forget about that. Next thing would be valve lift and valve timing. You need to verify that the valve timing is correct following procedure in manual, I don't have it on that model. I did see one John Deere tractor that had absolutely no power, smoke was normal for a fully loaded engine and the problem was transmission was over filled about 10 galons, filling the wet clutch flywheel compartment and placed a heavy load on engine when speeded up. But, if you have heavy black smoke with a normal injection pump setting you are just not getting air. If pump is over fueled you could get heavy black smoke from some external load problem in transmission or hydraulics. Not that familiar with that model though.

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GP Hansen

11-23-2012 04:17:11
65.101.104.61



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to John in Pennsylvania, 11-22-2012 10:52:39  
The head might have cracks in it from overheating preventing proper compression, not allowing the fuel to burn completly.



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rhtx55

11-22-2012 18:11:09
68.185.207.25



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to John in Pennsylvania, 11-22-2012 10:52:39  
If your fuel system has a return line from the pump back to the tank, I would say it is either very restricted or pratically plugged. The pump is putting out more fuel than the engine can use, it has to go somewhere.



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John in Pennsylvania

11-23-2012 02:01:49
174.255.57.246



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to rhtx55, 11-22-2012 18:11:09  
Return line is open......



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John in Pennsylvania

11-22-2012 18:32:18
174.255.57.246



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to rhtx55, 11-22-2012 18:11:09  
Return line is open......



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Fixerupper

11-22-2012 18:00:51
100.42.82.30



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to John in Pennsylvania, 11-22-2012 10:52:39  
Something tells me it's still restricted airflow. If the timing was that retarded it wouldn't start or would start real hard and smoke at idle. Is there a restriction ahead of the air cleaner? Did you try it with the hose off of the intake manifold so it's sucking pure air straight into the manifold? You've probably checked these out, but these ideas is what comes to my mind. Jim



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John in Pennsylvania

11-23-2012 02:01:47
174.255.57.246



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to Fixerupper, 11-22-2012 18:00:51  
I even ran it with the manifold removed....no difference.



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John in Pennsylvania

11-22-2012 18:34:04
174.255.57.246



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to Fixerupper, 11-22-2012 18:00:51  
I even ran it with the manifold removed....no difference.



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Fixerupper

11-22-2012 19:05:33
100.42.82.30



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to John in Pennsylvania, 11-22-2012 18:34:04  
I guess that eliminates my idea. Let us know when you find out what it is. Jim



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tjv

11-22-2012 17:24:21
67.230.241.17



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to John in Pennsylvania, 11-22-2012 10:52:39  
I had an issue with a tractor last year and the pump shop said to advance the timing a couple degrees on the older tractors to compinsate for the wear over the years (60 years) in different places (gears and connections) it seemed to help a little.



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Armand Tatro

11-22-2012 15:35:31
98.227.26.140



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to John in Pennsylvania, 11-22-2012 10:52:39  
The FIRST thing to check (IMO.) when having lots of smoke and maby loss of power is the air filter and turbo charger if you have one! Have you check/replace the air filter? Let us know what you find. Armand



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John in Pennsylvania

11-22-2012 15:57:33
70.194.5.34



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to Armand Tatro, 11-22-2012 15:35:31  
Air and fuel filter new. No turbo.



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David G

11-22-2012 14:20:12
205.215.206.18



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to John in Pennsylvania, 11-22-2012 10:52:39  
I would suspect timing is way slow.



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John in Pennsylvania

11-23-2012 02:02:07
174.255.57.246



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to David G, 11-22-2012 14:20:12  
Is there a way to check the timing without opening the front of the engine



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John in Pennsylvania

11-22-2012 14:39:09
70.194.5.34



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to David G, 11-22-2012 14:20:12  
Is there a way to check the timing without opening the front of the engine



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Bob M

11-22-2012 11:51:56
69.207.86.27



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to John in Pennsylvania, 11-22-2012 10:52:39  
John - Whenever you see black exhaust it means the pump's injecting more fuel than can be burned.

You've eliminated intake/exhaust restricting air flow to/from the engine. And since you've had the pump rebuilt and the injectors tested, at this point I'd suspect the pump timing. Could be it's timed late. Or perhaps the advance is not not working. The pump shop should have checked that however.

Good luck, and have a happy Thanksgiving!

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John in Pennsylvania

11-22-2012 12:08:57
174.255.54.6



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to Bob M, 11-22-2012 11:51:56  
This particular injection pump does not have an advance on it. I was wondering about the timing myself t oday. I'm marked the pump when I removed it and I put the pump back on in the exact same location and it matches the timing marks on the pump an engine exactly. I'm just wondering if anything could have happened in the timing set up i tself such as a keyway partially Sheard or something like that? Is that actually possible?

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Bob M

11-22-2012 12:26:57
69.207.86.27



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to John in Pennsylvania, 11-22-2012 12:08:57  
Pump drive key sheared I suppose is possible (I've had the camshaft key break on a gas tractor).

Is there a timing adjustment on your pump like on the MD/WD6/WD9 pumps? If so you can change the timing using the adjustment. Otherwise you might set the pump timing 1 tooth advanced from the factory timing mark and see if this helps.

Unfortunately I'm not familiar with the BD 154. Does it have a Roosa Master pump, or ????

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John in Pennsylvania

11-22-2012 13:00:27
174.231.13.193



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to Bob M, 11-22-2012 12:26:57  
Yes you can rotate the pump slightly forward and backward but is very hard with all the solid injection lines it doesn't wanna move easily. There is a pin in the key way for the injection pump and gear it is correct not Sheard.



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John in Pennsylvania

11-22-2012 13:01:46
174.231.13.193



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to John in Pennsylvania, 11-22-2012 13:00:27  
Forgot to add it is a CAV rotary injection pump



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John in Pennsylvania

11-23-2012 02:01:57
174.255.57.246



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to John in Pennsylvania, 11-22-2012 13:01:46  
I just read an article that says the bd154 is known for woodruff key problems with the camshaft. Any one seen this?????



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jimb2

11-23-2012 19:03:59
174.114.182.155



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to John in Pennsylvania, 11-23-2012 02:01:57  
Hi John, Dad bought a new B414D with BD-154 in May of 1964 and in late July it gave a back fire through the air cleaner and quit and could not be started again. Luckily it was under warranty and IH fixed it. There was either no key in cam shaft or it sheared off. Pistons hit valves etc. We used tractor for another 10 years and put over 15,000 Hrs on the engine without anymore problems. We also had 434 and 384 with BD-154 and put many hours on them without engine problems.

Re, the smoking problem, it is normal for an older BD-154 to smoke a bit if the throttle is yanked from idle to wide open. I remember communicating with you about a month ago, at that time did you checked the hydraulic system for loading the engine? IIRC, I had you check the temperature of the hydraulic pump with your hand.

JimB

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John in Pennsylvania

11-22-2012 16:09:15
70.194.5.34



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to John in Pennsylvania, 11-22-2012 13:01:46  
I just read an article that says the bd154 is known for woodruff key problems with the camshaft. Any one seen this?????



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The tractor vet

11-22-2012 18:01:09
76.212.227.196



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to John in Pennsylvania, 11-22-2012 16:09:15  
No i have not but i have only worked on a couple . And you are sure that the valve lash is correct and that the intake is opening like it should . And with out knowing the spec's on the cam myself i think you would be shooting in the dark. So i am guessing that the only way to know IF it is a timing issue is to pull the ft of the engine off and start from square one and set everything from the get go . NOT fun .

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John in Pennsylvania

11-23-2012 02:01:46
174.255.57.246



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to The tractor vet, 11-22-2012 18:01:09  
I want to look at the timing gears...just trying to avoid the FUN of pulling it all apart.



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John in Pennsylvania

11-22-2012 18:36:44
174.255.57.246



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to The tractor vet, 11-22-2012 18:01:09  
I want to look at the timing gears...just trying to avoid the FUN of pulling it all apart.



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The tractor vet

11-22-2012 18:46:37
76.212.227.196



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to John in Pennsylvania, 11-22-2012 18:36:44  
Ya got my phone #



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John in Pennsylvania

11-23-2012 02:01:42
174.255.57.246



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to The tractor vet, 11-22-2012 18:46:37  
I might still....you can email it again if you would be so kind. jwmirz@gmail.com



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John in Pennsylvania

11-22-2012 18:56:49
174.255.57.246



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 Re: Question for you diesel guys in reply to The tractor vet, 11-22-2012 18:46:37  
I might still....you can email it again if you would be so kind. jwmirz@gmail.com



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