Jumping 6v?

This is probably a stupid question, but I've never had to jump start a 6v tractor before. How do you hook the cables up? Do you hook them up as you would with a 12v (+ to + and - to -) even though the tractor is positive ground??

Always + to +, - to -. Possiblility that battery will blow up. Best to connect to directly to starter and a ground away from battery. Lots of opinions on this in the archives.

(quoted from post at 08:51:42 12/16/10) Always + to +, - to -. Possiblility that battery will blow up. Best to connect to directly to starter and a ground away from battery. Lots of opinions on this in the archives.

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So just ground it to the chassis, and put the positive to the starter terminal? I usually never use my 6v M in the winter, but I need to use it, and it was dead yesterday so my only option is to jump start it today.

ALWAYS JUMP POS TO POS AND NEG TO NEG

Regardless which battery post happens to be bonded to some huge hunk of iron lol

I DO NOT recommend jumping a 6 volt battery direct with a 12 volt battery, it can blow up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If I need to jump start a 6 volt tractor with 12 volts, I JUMP THE STARTER MOTOR ONLY. This can be done iffffffffff the starter motor has an exposed available connection post,,,,,,,,,Or if you can get to the output (Starter NOT to battery) side of a starter switch or starter solenoid.

This is a high current connection and can cause big time sparks USE CAUTION and DO NOT allow sparks anywhere near the battery. I prefer the last jump connection be made somewhere on a clean non painted part of the frame/chassis AWAY from the battery. Use good quality jumper cables with strong clamps

REMEMBER POS TO POS NEG TO NEG

If a tractor is Pos ground, that means its battery POS is tied to frame/chassis so thats where the POS of the jump cable is (or can be) attached as its wired to the batterys POS post i.e. youre still jumping POS to POS

John T

like everyone else said hook + to + and - to-. you can"t have an explosion without a spark. make the last connection as far from the battery as possible. i have done this many many times. if you guys ever watched the tractor starting cart at archbold you wouldn"t be afraid of it. i think they can turn that reostat up to 100 volts the way they can spin those old diesels over.

Hook it to the starter connection first or you can ruin the threads on the stud or cause enough heat to melt the soldered connection inside the starter. Make sure that connection is good & tight , then complete by grounding the other booster cable.If your 6v battery is completly dead there won't be any ign spark unless you have a magneto.

dont forget that the ground is hooked up last and disconnected first.

If you can safely "fast charge" a 6V battery with a commercial battery charger, you can certainly jump it with a 12V battery.

The commercial battery charger achieves "fast charge" by applying approximately double the battery's voltage. The difference in voltages is what causes the current to flow at a high rate.

Of course makes no differenct which is ground just +-+ and if you want trouble use a 12v to jump a 6v just a good way to blow one up and the acid isnt any fun just dont do it

Why would you tell anyone to use a 12 to jump a 6 you can do it all you want but telling someone else to do it is not good.

(quoted from post at 11:46:21 12/16/10) Why would you tell anyone to use a 12 to jump a 6 you can do it all you want but telling someone else to do it is not good.

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Thanks guys. I tried jumping it from the battery with a 6v booster charger, and it would barely turn over. We even tried it on 12v and it still wouldn't spin over quick enough to fire. We ended up having to hook it to the truck and drag it down the road to fire it up. This thing will spin over about as quick as 12v during the summer, but in the winter (11 degrees today) it won't start for anything.

Also so I have this correct for next time, the safest way to jump with 12v is to first hook the positive cable up to the post on the starter, then hook the ground to a clean chassis/frame part as far away from the battery as possible? As soon as this connection is made, the starter will spin over, correct? And stop powering the starter when the ground is removed from the chassis?

With all due respect, your statement:

"If you can safely "fast charge" a 6V battery with a commercial battery charger, you can certainly jump it with a 12V battery"

I BEG TO DIFFER WITH AND HERES THE ENGINEERING AND PHYSICS RELATED REASONING WHY


I CAN GIVE YOU AT LEAST A COUPLE REASONS WHY ITS DIFFERENT (more dangerous) TO JUMP USING A BATTERY VERSUS USING A BATTERY CHARGER

A heavy duty battery has the capacity/ability to supply SOMETHING LIKE 1000 AMPS (ever heard of say a 500 to 1000 CCA rated battery???) while even a fairly big battery charger only has something like 50 to 100 amps capacity/ability.

A battery charger has its own overload protection device to limit its current output so it doesnt overheat and destroy itself WHICH THE 12 VOLT BATTERY DOES NOT. The battery may supply 1000 amps for a brief time period before it exhausts its internal stored energy or warps its plates etc BUT A 50 OR 100 AMP CHARGER SIMPKY CANT SUPPLY 1000 AMPS (at least NOT for any significant time as compared to a battery) LIKE A BIG BATTERY CAN.

FOR SAFETYS SAKE I MUST STILL ADVICE PEOPLE NOTTTTTTTTTTTT TO JUMP A 6 VOLT BATTERY WITH A 12 VOLT BATTERY AND I MAINTAIN (reasons above) THERE IS INDEED A DIFFERENCE IN USING A CHARGER VERSUS ANOTHER BATTERY

PS Im NOT here to fight or argue but to HELP people and prevent injury if I can

God Bless, be safe n have a merry Christmas

John T

You've got the order of work right. With what you've reported, I believe I'd check and clean up that stack of connections on top of the starter for more reliable operation off your battery.

YES if the tractor youre starting is a Neg ground.....

YES the starter will spin

YES it will stop spinning when you remove the cable

Actually Id say hook the last ground to a clean frame/chassis member YES away from the battery butttttttttttt also close to the starter is a good thing

YOU GET AN A FOR LISTENING

John T

(quoted from post at 12:44:07 12/16/10) YES if the tractor [b:f249082cd1]youre starting is a Neg ground[/b:f249082cd1].....

YES the starter will spin

YES it will stop spinning when you remove the cable

Actually Id say hook the last ground to a clean frame/chassis member YES away from the battery butttttttttttt also close to the starter is a good thing

YOU GET AN A FOR LISTENING

John T

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My tractor is positive ground. :?

Next time you get it started warm the engine and change to a lighter weight oil for winter. 5-30 maybe??

Just one more reason to convert to 12 volt negative ground.

(quoted from post at 15:53:13 12/16/10) Just one more reason to convert to 12 volt negative ground.

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Yep. My uncle had his H converted to 12v about 8 years ago, and haven't had a starting problem since. I just ordered my Alternator for the M. I've never converted one before, but hopefully I can handle it.

Be carefull when starting tractor from ground can be quick way to get killed. I personaly knew 2 people that were killed by starting tractor from ground and I have had close call. Always triple check to be sure tractor is out of gear and then bump starter over with ignition off for another check.

If it was dead yesterday, and you need it today, why didn't you charge it? A good 6V battery will start an M with clean connections and proper cables. I bought a 6 volt SM last summer that I intend to leave that way.

AS MENTIONED BEFORE + to + - to - ,case in point two men i worked with tried to jump start an old cat loader with a new model pickup at the time,hooked up jumper cables fried alt., 2 way radio, and cell phone which at that were truck mounted only,plus couple more electrical components after a few days usage,they didn't realise that those 4-6 volt batteries were hooked up for 24 volts,best i can remember is the way they hooked it up they created 36 volts back to the truck, boss wasn't happy at all for it was the truck he drove. here's another to think on, a man i worked for used old military trucks they were 24 volt, to keep cost down if it worked he would use it, seen more than one with 24 volt gen. ,starter, ign., 12 volt lights,if ign. went bad on 24 change it to 12 leave the rest 24, biggest reason for this was the cost of 24 volt parts,not complicated as it sounds to get 12 volts out of a 24 volt system ,even though 2-12 volt batteries were hooked in series for 24 he hooked to one battery + to +,- to - which gave him 12 volts even though the rest of the system ran on 24, which is the way the 2 men intended to jump start the cat loader but got confused with the 4-6 volt battery setup,saying all that to say this ,it is possible to create 18 volts when connecting a 6&12 volt together if hooked up wrong, 6 volt electrical system parts won't stand 18 volts long.

(quoted from post at 19:20:09 12/16/10) If it was dead yesterday, and you need it today, why didn't you charge it? A good 6V battery will start an M with clean connections and proper cables. I bought a 6 volt SM last summer that I intend to leave that way.

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Not sure where you live, but here whenever it gets in the single digits it just wont turn over with 6 volts in the battery alone. My ohm meter read 6.41 volts in it, and it would barely turn over. It's a new battery, new 0 gauge cables, shiney ground connections, and it just won't spin fast enough to fire in the winter. In the summer it spins over quick and fires right up. I've been told this could be due to the oil in the motor, so I'm going to put some thinner oil in it for the winter as well, but I'm going to go ahead and convert it to 12v anyways. I use this tractor almost every day, and can't afford to have starting troubles, as we run a horse farm and are constantly spreading horse manure, plowing the drive, grading the training track, moving and pulling up horse trailers, ect.

(quoted from post at 08:45:59 12/16/10) This is probably a stupid question, but I've never had to jump start a 6v tractor before. How do you hook the cables up? Do you hook them up as you would with a 12v (+ to + and - to -) even though the tractor is positive ground??

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Faster,
You have received all good information (except for the rediculous one that could get you hurt) so I did not see a reason to jump in.
BUT, you have replied in two of the post incorrectly and I think you still are not sure on the point. Let me say it this way.

Whichever way the tractor battery is connected, connect the jumping battery the SAME way. If the tractor battery negative post is connected to the starter, then connect the jumping battery negative post to the starter also and the other to ground.

I say again, whichever way the tractor battery is connected, connect the jumping battery the same way.

Dell

JohnT,

I don't care how many Amps the battery is "capable of." Physics still rules the day. Physics was my best subject through high school and college, and I've dabbled with electrical and electronics for almost 20 years since.

Even if the battery was capable of a MILLION Amps, it's only going to flow what it's going to flow based on the difference in voltage between the 12V source and the 6V battery.

You simply can't "force" current just because the source is capable of producing that much current. Current flow is based on what's in the circuit.

If applying 12V to a 6V battery caused excessive current flow, you would see these commercial chargers burning up.

Check the open circuit voltage on a battery charger in "6V fast charge" mode sometime. Put your meter across the clips.

Sounds like you have other issues at work here. Acts about like a diesel. I'd put a circulating heater in it and plug it in every night. Might also have the starter check to see if it is dragging.

(quoted from post at 08:18:58 12/17/10) Sounds like you have other issues at work here. Acts about like a diesel. I'd put a circulating heater in it and plug it in every night. Might also have the starter check to see if it is dragging.

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I've been looking into heaters. Wonder if there's any type of probe screw in heater that I could put in the oil pan where the drain plug goes??

FUN Discussion, thanks, hope I can help..

On this one youre "close but no cigar" Your voltage argument is on track butttttttt youre not recognizing or understanding why or how the source voltage drops versus the current it can supply for x time AND THE BATTERY CAN SUPPLY MUCH MUCH MORE CURRENT THEN THE CHARGER in the short run before its voltage drops too low to continue current flow to the load, AND IN THAT TIME THE 6 VOLT BATTERY CAN BLOW UP !!!!!!!!!

The capacity DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE YOU HAVE TO CONSIDER STORED AND AVAILABLE ENERGY AND VOLTAGE DROP..........A battery can supply many more amps (even if for only a short time) then a battery charger before its voltage drops so low it no longer can do so AND THATS A TON MORE THEN A CHARGER CAN IN THE SHORT RUN BECAUSE ITS VOLTAGE WOULD DROP TOO LOW (as compared to the battery)............ An "ideal" voltage source maintains and supples X volts regardless of current flow, in a battery versus charger situation, althoug neither is "ideal" in the short run the battery is way closer then the charger (subject to its rating of course)

Like I said the battery can deliver like 1000 amps (in the short run before its voltage drops too low) to a starter and that a veryyyyyy lowwwwwwwwwww ohm load remember, while a battery charger (subject to its size) simply CAN NOT supply anywhere near that many amps. You may see 50 or 100 amp boost chargers, but they simply cant deliver the amps a battery can to the same load (such as say a low resistance DC starter) for a brief time period, SORRY CHARLIE

***If you dont believe me, try to jump start a nearly dead battery wiht a battery charger then try it again with a battery and see the difference ****

I hear what youre saying about voltage but you arent taking VOLTAGE DROP into consideration. A part of a CCA rating has to do with the amps that can be suppled for X time BEFORE the voltage drops to x volts. AND BELIEVE ME A BATTERY CAN SUPPLY A TON OF AMPS MORE THEN A BATTERY CHARGER CAN IN THE SHORT RUN AND THATS WHAT CAN BLOW UP A 6 VOLT BATTERY

Like you I also happen to have experience and formal education in electronics, BS Electrical Engineering in 1969/1970 and now FORTY YEARS EXPERIENCE plus years as a used tractor dealer and farmer and have seen 6 volt batteries BLOW UP when jumped by a 12 volt battery

FEEL FREE TO JUMP A 6 VOLT BATTERY WITH A 12 VOLT BATTERY IF YOU WISH, BUT IN ALL GOOD FAITH AND CONSCEINCE I MUST ADVISE OTHERS TO USE A CHARGER INSTEAD AS ITS FARRRRRRRR LESS DANGEROUS (even if you dont understand why and sorry I cant explain it to you in a few sentences)

So if in doubt, I beg you to err on the SAFE SIDE and dont jump a 6 volt battery with a 12 volt as it can blow up and shoot acid in your eyes PLEASE JUST SAY NOOOOOOOO

Thanks again, fun discussion, sorry if I cant convince you and I sure cant cover an electrical course here in a few sentences, so please stay safe and whatever you do DO NOT JUMP A 6 VOLT BATTERY WITH A 12 VOLT BATTERY BECAUSE IT ISSSSSSSSS MORE DANGEROUS THEN USING A CHARGER (battery can supply more amps), ITS JUST MORE DANGEROUS AND EVEN IF YOU CANT UNDERSTAND WHY, PLEASE DONT TRY IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hopefully some other electrical gents who are better teachers then myself can explain to you why its NOT safe to jump a 6 with a 12 and why its more dangerous then using a charger, (just jump the starter as I explained below).

Similar to what I always say, its your tractor and your eyes and your choice and youre free to do as you please and everyone is entitled to their own OPINIONS (but NOT their own facts) but based on my own education and experiecne its my opinion (which I argure physics agrees its a fact) ITS NOT SAFE TO JUMP A 6 WITH A 12 AND SUCH IS FAR MORE DANGEROUS THEN USING A CHARGER

God Bless n keep yall safe this Holiday season

Merry Christmas

Again, GREAT discussion, hope it helps

Ol John T

I have personally seen a 12v battery blow the top of a 6v battery twice.
Once when I was a teenager my cousin asked me to jump his 6v pickup from my 12v JD saying it would whip it over faster. The 6v pickup battery was located in the floorboard and as soon as I connect to my JD the top blew off his battery and took some of the floor insulation with it. It splattered acid all over the inside of the cab.
The second time was about 5 years ago at a local Labor Day tractor get together at the fairgrounds. A fellow was jumping a 6v H with a 12v M. The H battery blew up the instant the owner touched a cable to it. He left in an ambulance and I never heard how he did.
In both instances it was a direct battery to battery connection.

Now, I used to jump my 6v magneto H all the time from a 12v battery until I got smart enough to have the mag rebuilt then it started on 6v easy. When using the 12v I would disconnect the ground cable from the 6v tractor battery then connect the proper 12v cable to the starter then TOUCH the other cable to ground to engage the starter. As soon as the tractor started I release the ground and then reconnect the tractor battery ground.

Publicly advising someone to direct connect a 12v battery to a 6v battery is the most ridiculous and irresponsible thing I have seen on this forum.

Dell

There are plenty of threads and posts on that in the archives including just a few days ago. Do a search on heaters. That said, there are circulating ones for the radiator hose and a heater hose if you have one. Block heaters for the block soft plug. Magnetic heaters for the oil pan which are removable. Haven't heard of a drain plug heater except the type in stock tank waterers. Circulating heater can warm it up in an hour and the others take up to 6 hours and still never warm the water and block all over.

Sounds like you need to use your tractor every day in cold weather. 12v conversion may help a little but there are a lot of us who have to jump start the 12v systems in cold weather which doesn't solve your problem.

Best thing for the engine in the long run would be to keep it warm all the time so it doesn't go through the freeze/warmup cycle all the time and worry about oil not properly circulating until it warms up. It will provide some residual heat to the intake manifold and your hydraulic supply as well. If your hydraulics are still too slow you can put a magnetic heater on that supply as well but mine quits whining after a few minutes when it warms up. Let us know what you do.

(quoted from post at 11:10:06 12/17/10) There are plenty of threads and posts on that in the archives including just a few days ago. Do a search on heaters. That said, there are circulating ones for the radiator hose and a heater hose if you have one. Block heaters for the block soft plug. Magnetic heaters for the oil pan which are removable. Haven't heard of a drain plug heater except the type in stock tank waterers. Circulating heater can warm it up in an hour and the others take up to 6 hours and still never warm the water and block all over.

Sounds like you need to use your tractor every day in cold weather. 12v conversion may help a little but there are a lot of us who have to jump start the 12v systems in cold weather which doesn't solve your problem.

Best thing for the engine in the long run would be to keep it warm all the time so it doesn't go through the freeze/warmup cycle all the time and worry about oil not properly circulating until it warms up. It will provide some residual heat to the intake manifold and your hydraulic supply as well. If your hydraulics are still too slow you can put a magnetic heater on that supply as well but mine quits whining after a few minutes when it warms up. Let us know what you do.

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Thanks for the reply. I am going to look into heaters some more today while I'm at work. I think a 12v conversion makes most sense as much as it is used in the cold. I've never had a problem with my 12v H in the winter not starting, but this 6v M is one problem after another. Thanks again for all the advice.

And it may be just as likely you need a new battery and cables anyway. If you haven't put on new cables in the last 2 or 3 years I would suspect them. You can clean the terminals but they start corroding in under the insulation where you can't clean or see it. Batteries over 2 or 3 years old is the same. Usually won't hold a full charge and you don't notice till in the winter when you really need the amps.

If you put it on the charger and still have cranking problems, then battery time. Just like I'm getting ready to, I put a new battery in the PU and rotate the old but still good to the tractor and still have some trade in value on the 9 to 12 years that walmart will prorate them.

6v batteries have larger posts so you likely will need to replace the cables anyway if you convert. Biggest cables you can get. Most places have 2 guage at at good price and better than 4. Get 0 if you are cranking on a diesel or something with glow plugs.

Dont tell these fellows to use an ohmmeter to read voltage.many are numb enough to try it.

Well said John. I have done a lot of boosting in my days but I will boost the starter rather than the 6volt battery. If you are going to boost a 6v battery , use another 6 volt battery and not a 12. Also make the last connection away from the battery.

What kind of 6 volt batteries have larger posts? I have never seen a difference. The + is larger than the- in all 6 or 12.

(quoted from post at 08:51:42 12/16/10) Always + to +, - to -. Possiblility that battery will blow up. Best to connect to directly to starter and a ground away from battery. Lots of opinions on this in the archives.

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My favorite way to jump it is with a chain!

Why would you need to disconnect the ground cable? If you are boosting the starter the 12 volts can't get to the 6 volt battery unless you use the starter switch. How would it start with a dist instead of a mag if you took off the ground cable??

(quoted from post at 18:38:21 12/17/10) Why would you need to disconnect the ground cable? If you are boosting the starter the 12 volts can't get to the 6 volt battery unless you use the starter switch. How would it start with a dist instead of a mag if you took off the ground cable??

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In a magneto system there is no need to remove battery gnd. I just do it as a precaution.

In a dist. system there is a chance of harming a component so I disconnect the battery ground. Once the tractor is running the generator will provide enough juice to run tractor while you reconnect the battery ground. If you want to test that, disconnect the ground while the tractor is running. If your gen is working the tractor will continue to run. (I know the sparkies think that is not a good way to test gen operation)

Dell

Just my maybe faulty recollection Teddy. I haven't had a 6 volt battery in years. I just remember all the issues with having cables that wouldn't fit posts. Maybe I'm thinking of that collection of cables always laying around that were used to hook a bunch of truck batteries in series and parallel. That and having different red and black cables with different sized posts. My tractor now has 2 black cables and both fit the battery and are interchangable. Maybe not a 6v vs. 12v but I think the newer batteries have the same size post. Correct me where I'm wrong.

What provides the juice to the coil when cranking with the ground cable off? Something doesn't sound right here. A generator has to spin faster than cranking speed to feed the coil.

(quoted from post at 08:57:32 12/19/10) What provides the juice to the coil when cranking with the ground cable off? Something doesn't sound right here. A generator has to spin faster than cranking speed to feed the coil.

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The ignition key or switch is in the on position during jumping which completes the gnd. The jumping battery supplies the necessary voltage/current.
I have done it that way many times. Try it.

Dell