C113 rebuild questions

Greetings all. New here to post, but this isn't my first visit. It seems nearly every question I google on the Super A comes up with this forum for a best possible answer. Kudos on having the very best site for info, parts and community for Yesterday's Tractors.

I acquired a 1951 Super A a year ago in a "do a guy a favor" deal (can we say "ouch"?), and I know it needed some work, but it did what I needed it to at the time, and find that it really is a handy little tractor. It's finally gotten to the point that something has to be done - I'm just wondering at what point to stop.

Some prior owner let the block apparently freeze and it cracked across most of the manifold side. Prior repair was brazing on the rear half, and "bondo" on the front half (the whole patch painted red, of course), where it had started leaking again. I have successfully done some welding on cast before, but with the braze already in place, I'm wondering if I should just continue the braze, or try to find a replacement block (getting into more work and expense than I need at the moment). Besides, I'll be needing to use it again in a week or so.

Another thing, it's been 'blowing by' and getting worse, as evidenced by the oil blown through the oil breather when under load. It also started leaking oil from the head gasket on the distributer side. Figuring the head had to be pulled anyway, I'd check the liners for wear, and they look ok (no noticeable wear ridge at top of cylinder). Oil pressure seems good (mid range on gauge), so the bearings are probably still serviceable.

There has been a lot of soot in the exhaust system, and there is substantial carbon build up on the (flat head) pistons and head, which says to me "valve guides and seals".

So, in your expert opinions, would a set of rings and valve overhaul be sufficient, or is this block worth doing a major on? What are the pros/cons of replacing the flat pistons with step heads (will 6v still crank it cold? cleaner combustion? possible cooling problems with the thermosiphon system?) What would be the chance of finding a c123 block with a water pump to put in it? Would the radiator need to be replaced too?

There are other issues with the touchcontrol, and rear end noise (in reverse), but those seem less of an issue at the moment.

Choices, choices (and money, money). :shock:

Thanks in advance,
WellWorn (in western NY)

If the block isnt cracked between the cycls you can justgrind the area and you could use JB Weld or fiberglass the crack. I have on that i ground so it was clean. I then used the rubber cement that body shops use on installing windshields. It has been on several three day tractor rides,parades and everyday use and no leaks. If you can get the block warm in that area then when the cement is still soft you can take a brush and rough it and it will look like cast paint and go. The repair was made 5 yrs ago and still works. Depending on sleeve wear a good ring job will last a long time depending ou your use of course. Yes the 6v system will start with the 3 1/8 hi-domes. Just need a good set of cables 1ga and a starter in shape new brushes ect. Mine start with 5-30 oil down below zero.

If it was mine I would find another block with block number 354898R1. Use the crankshaft, rods and cam from the old engine. Have the crankshaft measured for wear at your local auto machine shop and have them furnish the new bearings even if it has to ground undersize. Get a new sleeve kit and have the old rods installed on the new pistons. The head probably needs to reworked too. Your tractor's engine will then las a long time. You can also transfer your hydraulic pump. Hal

You can put a water pump on the engine you now have and dont need to change radiators. Over the yrs junk will settle at the bottom of the sleeves blocking the nickle sezed holes and wont let coolant flow out the lower part of the block thus causing bubbling when its worked hard. If you decide to replace he sleeves you will fing a lot of stuff there. Yhe bottom lin is what are you going to towork the tractor for. Mite just replace the rings and it will run for a long time.

I had a C-123 engine crack in the same place behind the manifold
and used JB weld. That was 10 years ago and still use the tractor
weekly . Also used some radiator stop leak.

It depends on whether or not you want to be sure it is fixed, or be looking for leaks every time you use it. El Toro gave you the "best" block number as that block is used for the C123 in the Super C and Super A1. It was sold with thick sleeves to give 113 cu in in later Super A's and C's also. Advantage is the overbore kits use thin sleeves to give a bore of 3.25", 132.7 cu in. No reboring necessary. You can also use older blocks, that were originally C113 as in your tractor, engine kits will result in 3.125 inch bores 122.7 cu in. Plan on an excess of $500 for the kit, plus maybe another $3-400 for hot tanking, head work and crankshft grinding. I am currently having my Super A engine done that way and hope to come in under $1000. You can also do what Gene says for a lot less money. I'm not arguing with his success.

Thanks for the input, gentlemen.

While it would be nice to have a "restoration" piece, the more I look at it, this doesn't look like the machine to do it to. Even though it has passable sheet metal and looks to have weathered indoors most of it's life. More than anything, it's a small tractor to work around the farm - that's what I got it for, and that's what it's been doing for the past year.

Gene, I appreciate the info on JBWeld, and very well may just do that. At this point in time, while I hate to so something half-fast (or twice), i do need to get it going again soon, and do have a limited budget to do so.

I did go to the garage this morning and did a little grinding on the block, and see that the brazing actually goes front to back beneath the lower casting rib on the block with some bondo over most of it, and the area that was bondo only and leaking, was a split between the casting ribs on the front. There appears to be no damage internally. From what I'm beginning to gather, cracks on the manifold side aren't all that uncommon, or dysfunctional.

Yes, the engine did "bubble" hard when working, and because of the leak, a prior owner had replaced the rad cap with a pop bottle bottom to keep it unpressurized. :/ There was obviously some 'stopleak' of some sort in it too, as there were several large flakes of it in the upper hose housing when I pulled it, a goodly layer in the lower rad hose, and there appears to be a bunch of debris in the block water chambers.

ElToro, my engine casting # is 251088-R1 - I assume the one you listed is a late model SA or SC with the C123 engine? I thought I read somewhere that the early C123 water pump motors had issues with hot spots, and there was an R3 revision. Did they have thermostats, or were they open loop? From the looks of my R1 castings, it doesn't look like there is a simple way to achieve a good running temp in winter with a water pump without a thermostat, or shutters. Just how did IH do it?

Thanks again,
WellWorn

Yes you can spend a lot of money or do a good fix and it will run forever. We justr arent running these engines hard for lots of hrs a day and many days in a row. You just have to figure out how important is iverything like new or do i just need a tractor to use from time to time. You can spend 6-7 hundred to have a completely new engine for what. I do like to completely rebuild and paint original and they sell well but just how much money as these little tractors have a different valu to their owners. I have had a couple that were rite up to snuff but i priced them so and the buyers were happy.Just never know what someone wants. I do tell the buyers what i have done and most just want a good tractor that they can use for parades and so forth. Now for just a mower thats different.

CNKS, that's exactly it - I'd rather have something I don't have to worry about, or fix again (and again) later.

Probably the thing to do for now is JB the crack, get rings, valve guides and seals (and a replacement manifold), and in my "spare time", go looking for a replacement block / tractor locally. Maybe even make this a "how modified can I make an A?" tractor, once I get the other work in progress (a MF 65 Hi-Clearance) put together.

Anyone ever fit an A with a diesel?

"From the looks of my R1 castings, it doesn't look like there is a simple way to achieve a good running temp in winter with a water pump without a thermostat, or shutters. Just how did IH do it?"

If IH put on a water pump, it had a thermostat to build the heat. There were differences in the cooling ports between the head and block (and, therefore, the head gasket) for motors with pumps and thermostats from those with thermosiphons.

Start first with the fct that the radiators on them were oversize and the fans are wicked efficient. Enough so that the shutters were common on the thermosiphons running on distillate. They ran even cooler than diesels do now, and you'd have done well in cold weather to ever get them up to operating temp.

In especially cold areas, folks would put the shutters on even gas engines as an option. I have a SuperC with them, and I use them about anytime I start it up in winter, and even on short runs in the summers, just to get it warmed up well before I shut it down.