Optmia Battery

I am thinking about putting a 6 volt Optmia battery in my H. Has anyone ever done this and where is the best place to purchase. I know they are expensive.

Sorry about spelling

Around here Advanced Auto handles them. The 6 volt AGM has about twice the CCA of many other conventional lead acid batteries (Good if you need to start at extreme cold temps),,,can be used in any orientation,,,,,,no acid spill to worry about,,,,,,,,,BUT they are of course more expensive so its YOUR TRACTOR YOUR CHOICE if they are worth the extra expense to gain a lot more (if needed??) CCA. The Frankster uses them, hopefully he will comment regarding his experience

John T

Check that it will fit in your battery carrier before purchasing, I have seen several comments about that being a problem. Also, they are very sensitive to overcharging.

The Optima is an outstanding battery, but would not be money well spent for installing in your H. The short coming of your H is the generator charging system. These tractors were built to run all day giving the charging system plenty of time to recharge the battery. Now days the short run times won't fully recharge the battery and if the battery is not kept fully charged it will have a short life. If you want reliable starting and good battery life, either use an automatic battery charger to top off the battery when you put it in the shed or convert to an alternator system.
K-Mo

(quoted from post at 20:50:18 11/18/09) Sorry about spelling

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Gary, near as I can tell you didn't misspell a single word in either of your posts!

If you do go with an Optima, heck, even if you don't, get yourself a "float charger" or "battery maintainer" and keep it plugged in whenever the tractor is being stored for long periods of time. Walmart has one that's selectable 6 or 12 Volts for around $16. There's the Deltran Battery Tender, which is the premiere brand. Harbor Freight sells a cheap one but it's 12V only.

I have one in the green tractor...been there 7 years. It refuses to let the vibration kill it like others have.
Got 2 in the Dodge diesel. Been there over 5 now...no problems.
When the factory battery in the car dies...one goes in it.
More money, but worth it in my book.
Got mine from Carquest...you can also get them on line...some folks have free shipping.

The best thing about Optimas is that they do not self-discharge (much, if at all). They can sit there all winter and hold a charge.

I once "lost" a pair of new yellowtops under my work bench for three years ( I know, that's like "losing" hundred dollar bills). During a cleanup I found them and was slapping myself around, just knowing they were going to be wasted. Put a voltmeter on them and they were at 12.5 volts! The batteries are dated September of 1997 and that was in 2001. I put them into my diesel pickup in '03 and they are still there today and just turned 12 years old.

A set with the same date codes (I got four at that time) were sold with another vehicle in 2006. AFAIK, they are still in it today. I got those four batteries free for a magazine project but when it came time to buy a new battery for another of my rigs, I was happy enough to shell out the bucks for an Optima.

Have one in tractor & 2 in trucks. Last a long time, never acid leak problem or need to add water. Available at Sam's Club, here.

Those high cold cranking amp are provided by sacrificing reserve capacity. I'll take a cheaper flooded lead acid battery with more amp hours any time.

I admit I have a bit of negative bias since AGMs have so much hyperbole in their advertising. I've had to change-out many failed AGM battery banks, and convert back to conventional flooded lead acid batteries.

Granted, there are advantages to using AGMs in certain applications. I see little advantage in farm tractors.

(quoted from post at 15:34:23 11/19/09) Those high cold cranking amp are provided by sacrificing reserve capacity. I'll take a cheaper flooded lead acid battery with more amp hours any time.

I admit I have a bit of negative bias since AGMs have so much hyperbole in their advertising. I've had to change-out many failed AGM battery banks, and convert back to conventional flooded lead acid batteries.

Granted, there are advantages to using AGMs in certain applications. I see little advantage in farm tractors.

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In comparing specs, I see little difference in reserve capacity between AGMs and flooded lead acid batteries (in comparable sizes, granted there are a lot of tractor sizes Optima/etal does not accommodate)

The bigger question is whether, or how much, reserve capacity plays a part with a vintage tractor owner. I think not all that much. Most of us want cranking power, longevity and low self discharge... traits where the AGMs usually beat the other types.

As to hyperbole, my definition of that word must be a little different than yours, and I wouldn't use that term to describe the Optima ads I've seen. In any case, the FTC exists to curb true hyperbole if you have the "goods" to send them. What I would call "Advertising Excess" occurs in all areas, and can be mighty annoying, but I don't see that any of the AGM manufacturers are any worse than, say, Die Hard or Interstate battery ads. Even great products can have annoying advertising. But so can bad ones, so you just have to learn enough to develop a "BS-Detector."

Can't argue about the high price! It's worth it to ya, or not. If my experience is any indicator, Optimas are worth the money. Getting 12 years and more out of a set of batteries is very good payback (that diesel truck typically ate a set of flooded lead acid batteries every four years or so, even with a 160 amp commercial alternator). I have managed as much as seven years out of a good conventional battery (Interstate) but it wasn't all that much cheaper than the Optima I replaced it with.

Anyway, perhaps you have a more detailed point to make over the reserve capacity issue. Maybe I'm dismissing that too much.

After reading all the other posts, here is my story and I swill stick to it. AGM batteries are terrific. They not only dont self discharge, they charge almost twice as fast as flooded batteries. I have used them almost since inception. Had six of them in my boat (group 30's)for approximately eight years. I also used gell cells but they dont compare to AGM. Currently have optimas in my cars and if I need new batteries in the tractors some day they will be optimas also. PS---the ones in the boat were square and not optimas. I believe that several other companies sell them. The military uses them exclusively or so I've heard. Also it doesn't hurt to leave them discharged for a long period of time. Henry

One of my pet peeves are those Diehard commercials where they brush a foot of snow off of a car that sat all winter up at Frostbite Falls, Minnesota in below zero temps and the car starts right off. The deception they don't tell about is that the layer of snow creates a snow cave effect and the internal temperature is 32 degrees.

Guess I haven't heard of these optima batteries. I'll check them out. I keep my 2606 outside. During most of the year I just remove the positive cable to the battery. Just give it a twist back on when I want to run it. During the winter when I move bales every week or two, I'll take the battery in and put it on the charger when the temps start getting below 10 to 20 degrees. I don't want my charger sitting out in the snow. Just takes a minute to put it back in.

FUN DISCUSSION

As an engineer Im always aware of and looking for engineering "trade offs" and energy principles show us theres no free lunch i.e. if you gain something in one place it may result in losses elsewhere.

Remember when they used Amp Hrs as a comparative battery rating??? then now they talk more about CCA and reserve capacity etc etc. The bottom line is a battery is an electrochemical energy STORAGE device and some store more energy then others. In lead acid batteries thats more often more weight as that means more lead and more acid i.e. more weight

AS far as CCA versus reserve capacity seems to me if you need to start a diesel you need highhhhhhhh CCA so she cranks fast enough to raise the temperature of the compressed air sufficient for combustion when the injectors fire and you would be more interested in CCA then reserve to get that fast initial spin. TO THE CONTRARY if you have a gas engine or a worn out engine that takes a while to start and its not so necessary that she cranks really really fastttttt then reserve capacity means more..

To avoid comparing apples to oranges one would need perhaps the Amp Hrs and CCA and Reserve Capacity in order to arrive at the decision as to which battery is best for a particular application. To me that may be high CCA ORRRRR high reserve, depends on the engine. Noooowwwwwwww if one technology (lead acid, Gel cell, AGM, etc) is more efficient and stores more energy due to technology improvements, that may be the best provided theres sufficient real data to make the call???????

Love this electrical chat, thanks yall

John T

(quoted from post at 18:20:55 11/19/09) FUN DISCUSSION

AS far as CCA versus reserve capacity seems to me if you need to start a diesel you need highhhhhhhh CCA so she cranks fast enough to raise the temperature of the compressed air sufficient for combustion when the injectors fire and you would be more interested in CCA then reserve to get that fast initial spin. TO THE CONTRARY if you have a gas engine or a worn out engine that takes a while to start and its not so necessary that she cranks really really fastttttt then reserve capacity means more..

To avoid comparing apples to oranges one would need perhaps the Amp Hrs and CCA and Reserve Capacity in order to arrive at the decision as to which battery is best for a particular application. To me that may be high CCA ORRRRR high reserve, depends on the engine. Noooowwwwwwww if one technology (lead acid, Gel cell, AGM, etc) is more efficient and stores more energy due to technology improvements, that may be the best provided theres sufficient real data to make the call???????

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All true in a general sense but how often do you see two [u:a500cc0679]starting[/u:a500cc0679] battery with major differences in CCAs and reserve capacity? Like one is super-duper in one area and truly lousy in the other, while another is vice versa. They're usually pretty balanced in capability in their class to be good for general use. Usually the differences are pretty small, perhaps with one battery, or type of battery, having an "edge" in one area or another. Sometimes you need that edge but the batteries I just looked at in the same general class didn't have enough of an edge from one to another be a "lifesaver" in either category, assuming a guy needed one over the other.

You can run sometimes into CCA trouble using a deep cycle as a starting battery or a starting battery in a deep cycle app, but those are not proper applications of the technology, so any problems are your own fault. The 12 year old batts in my pickup are deep cycles (yellowtops) but have only 100 CCS less (each) than the red top starting batts but are still 100 CCAs above the mfrs. CCA requirement for the truck.

Funny story. Back in '94, I had the batteries fail (on that same truck) while on a trip. I would have to jump start the truck from the trailer which had two six-volt deep-cycle golf cart batts in series for boondocking power. I went to a nearby Napa to get the batts replaced under warranty but even though they were only halfway through the period, the pro-rated cost was more than I paid for the new batts (how does that work, again?). In a fit of stubborness, I resolved to wait unit I got home to buy new batts (at a fair price and NOT from Napa). Jumping the truck from the trailer got annoying and, after a little creative cable-moving, I installed the two 6-volts in the truck and together, they were enough to start the truck during the rest of the trip (in the summertime).

In answer to your comments:

"In comparing specs, I see little difference in reserve capacity between AGMs and flooded lead acid batteries (in comparable sizes)"

I see a big difference. I rate a battery by how much amperage I'm buying per dollar. That includes the starting or reserve power available and expected life-span. When evaluated that way, the Optimas lose miserably.

In answer to:

"The bigger question is whether, or how much, reserve capacity plays a part with a vintage tractor owner. I think not all that much."

I think we are on different planets when it comes to tractors and heavy equipment - old or new. When I go out to start a tractor when it's zero degrees or colder, I want a battery that can keep on chugging until I get the engine started. The length of time that I can do that is directly related to reserve capacity, not cold cranking amps.

As to:

"As to hyperbole, my definition of that word must be a little different than yours"

Maybe so, I'm not sure. My statement about hyperbole is mostly about all AGMs in general and they have been marketted with much hyperbole - or better put - exagerated and somewhat deceptive claims. That is especially true when it comes to storage type deep-cycle batteries. I've worked on systems when one major battery failure costs thousands of dollars. My battery bank at home cost $4000. AGMs were the rage for a very short period of time for this sort of use.

To be specific though with Optima, they claim:

"a radically superior internal design"

That is not true. Different yes. Superior design for certain purposes, yes. Superior for all uses, absolutely not, and certainly not for tractor use.

"construction provides far more active surface area"

Not true. The thing is, Optimas when compared to other batteries, are smaller and have less material inside the battery. But, they make better use of what they have (to a degree). In general, overall, they have less active surface area, not more. They do have more per square inch, and less overall square inches.

"typically half again to twice the life of conventional batteries"

Pure BS. They make that claim by comparing apples to oranges. If you compare battery amp-hour, or watt-life to dollar, they lose big-time.

"Provides more power from a smaller package"

Again, silly. They provide more cranking amps for short bursts than larger batteries, along with less power-over-time.

One more note. You mentioned deep-cycle batteries are not suited for cranking. They certainly are. Just need to be derated by 20% and they work fine.

I've got two Case tractors with six volt systems and Trojan deep-cycle T-105s. Both on their 8th year of use.

One more comment about another poster's claim. He stated Optimas charge faster than conventoinal batteries. That is incorrect. Most Optimas charge faster because they are smaller batteries with much less material internally to charge.

With a lot of what you said, I answer, "So you say." You didn't offer any contrasting data and when I compare data, I see it a bit differently. But let's not turn this is a dueling data session where we cherry pick the data that makes our points. I don't have the time and don't really care that much whether I am "right" or not. I have an opinion based on what I know, see and can look up. So do you. Over and above the "hyperbole" there is more than enough data out there for a person to compare and contrast battery performance and make up their own mind when time comes to buy a battery.

Your best point on the Optima issue may be the performance per dollar issue but that's hard to measure in a "one size fits all" manner. I paid a lot of money for batteries that only lasted three or four years. I now have a somewhat more expensive set that has lasted 12 years and is still going. Maybe that's the exception (as it might be with your 8 year Trojan example), maybe it isn't. There isn't any way you or I can measure that. Our limited circle of anecdotal reports really doesn't say much.

Almost forgot. I didn't mean say deep cycles "weren't suited " for cranking just that they may not have the necessary cranking amps. Seemed clear to me at the time, but maybe not

I certainly did offer contrasting data. The lower reserve capacity and the higher price of the Optimas and other glass mat batteries. Also the AGMs overall have warranties no better, and often worse then the conventional batteries. AGMs got dropped by many installers of battery banks because their warranties are too short to qualify for most incentive programs. Most state and Federal programs require a 5 year warranty.

Is there some other nebulous element here I'm missing? Reserve capacity is the overall most important factory in starting a tractor in cold weather - unless it's parked in a heated garage or hooked to an electric block heater.

I do a fair amount of work with large battery banks. If you own a battery bank, or even a collection of tractors and plan on keep them going for a long time - your price of batteries can be figured as a cost-by-month. Figure in the up-front cost, the power available, along with the expected or average life span - and that tells the story.

Last time I figured (I do it about once a year due to price changes) it goes like this.

Flooded lead acid battery - medium price range with medium warranty. 900 amp hours costs $9.50 per month.

Flooded lead acid battery - premium price with extended warranty (10 year average life). 1,120 amp hours for $8.30 per month.

AGM battery (Concorde, Optima) - 1,050 amp hours costs $70 per month.