460 gear clash

This is a problem I have had for a while. Rebuilt engine clutch, TA works, I have not had it apart. Engine flywheel has been resurfaced with the correct step height of 2.188". "Correct" clutch pedal free play is 1 3/8", I have it adjusted to about 2" to keep the clutch fingers from touching the release bearing when the clutch is engaged---I suppose this could mean that the flywheel has been ground too many times, but the clutch DOES disengage. Gears will shift without clashing (provided I let the gears stop turning after pushing in clutch) with the connecting rod between the clutch and TA levers disconnected. With that rod connected there is excessive gear clash. Gears will shift but always with some clash. TA is adjusted to spec, along with various "out of spec" adjustments to try to quiet the gears. I had the main clutch fork brazed, and bushings put in the attaching holes in the clutch rod to remove slop in the linkage. There is still about 1/2" movement in the linkage before the fingers move to disengage the clutch, there was about an inch before repairs. Clutch sleeve and release and pilot bearings are new, the old sleeve was badly worn. With the TA inspection cover removed the TA clutch disengages with the lever pulled back or the engine clutch disengaged. The transmission stops turning when the engine clutch is disengaged, and connecting lever disconnected. When connected, gears clash with the TA lever forward or back. Why do the gears turn with the TA connected and the engine and TA clutches disengaged?

No the step hight on the flywheel is 1.188 not 2.188 . Now is this a farmall or international ?? 460

I meant 1.188, it is a International 460 Hi utility. Followed I&T manual for that model, and referred to the Blue Ribbon manual for the TA--they say about the same thing. There appears to be adequate surface remaining on the flywheel, no where near the attaching bolts. One thing I tried and then removed was to use 5/16 inch washers as spacers between the pressure plate and the step to move the clutch further away from the flywheel to allow more room for disengagement. It did not help any. In relation to that, why can't I adjust the free play of the engine clutch to the specified 1 3/8 inches and still have the fingers off the clutch? I left the fingers alone until until I tried adding the spacers. Then they had to be moved. Currently have about 3/16 inch between the fingers and the bearing. Any closer (either finger or pedal adjustment) and the release bearing drags. I know you don't recommend finger adjustment -- I think I have read all your comments in the archives. I have messed with the free play for the TA clutch by changing the pin to end of slot in the clevis distance, does not seem to matter, at least for gear clash, probably does affect the TA when used. So, basically I have run out of options, except to pull the TA and decide what it needs.

CNKS, I think lost motion is your problem. The clevices and pins as well as shaft clearance in the housing all ad to the total slack. The free play setting shaoul withdraw the T/O bearing fully off of the fingers. If it does not, some lost motion is happening. A worn pin, a ovaled out pivot, or other loose fitting. Both clutches should be very free when fully disengaged. When in TA, the TA clutch must be free to float. Put it in gear, TA back. Hold the clutch down, Take it out of gear. If the trans spools up and crunches when a gear is selected, the TA clutch is dragging. If it does it in Direct the same way, The master clutch is dragging, or the pilot bearing is tight or gummed up driving the input shaft. JimN

Here's a few things to consider, For gears to clash in low or high T/A the movement has to come from the main clutch shaft. If no clash with T/A link unhooked and clash when hooked make sure there's not something in linkage or other keeping the front clutch shaft from moving as much as it did unhooked. Also check if T/A release bearing carrier is not contacting main clutch shaft enough to deflect and cause main clutch drag with clutch in or T/A lever back link installed. Another posability is a problem with splines and sleeve on rear of main clutch shaft keeping sleeve in contact with T/A clutch. None of these may be likley, I suspect the main clutch. Only one problem I can think of now with T/A itsself that would cause your problem is the needle bearings being out on T/A input shaft and causing main clutch shaft to get out of line.
Not sure what you mean on main clutch, If you set the 1-3/8, are the fingers contacting clutch plat when pushed, or bearing still contacts fingers when released.
Don't know how much clash you have but with link hooked and clutch disengaged the T/A unit goes to low and could be just a little bit more easy to turn transmission input if main clutch is right on edge of drag.

The lost motion accounts for about 1/2 inch, which to me is too much. I took the clutch rod and fork to a machinest and he cut the slop about in half (was 1 inch), said the other holes were about as close to correct without him bushing them. I know that the holes, etc add up, but without getting all new parts, which don't exist, I can't put it back in new condition. THe new sleeve is aftermarket, there is a little movement between the fork and the "nubs" on the sleeve. Shifts ok when the clutch pedal and the TA lever are disconnected, although I don't like that much free play (2 inches) in the main clutch. The gears grind when the rod is connected, when the TA is adjusted by the book, and also not by the book. Pilot bearing is new, the parts are clean. The main question is, if the engine clutch is disengaged, why do the gears clash with the (clutch pedal to TA lever) rod connected. I can't see inside the TA, but the TA clutch is visible and free when disengaged. It seems to me that the gears begin to turn when the TA is disengaged which happens when the engine clutch is disengaged -- that should be impossible. One thing I can't find a spec on is the gap between the TA clutch disk and the surface it contacts when disengaged. That gap is affected by the free play of the TA clutch linkage, which when set at the recommended space of 3/16" isn't much, but it is free. You say "gummed up". Admittedly I did not slide the pilot bearing onto the shaft to see how it fit before installing in the flywheel. That bearing is standard equipment on Hy-Capacity rebuilt clutches, and I think I would have noticed if the shaft was garfed up.

I have to have 2 inches (spec is 1 3/8) pedal travel to get 1/8-3/16 inches between the fingers and the release bearing. That is just enough to keep the bearing away from the fingers when clutch is engaged. It does sound as if something gets out of line when the rod is connected and the main clutch pushed in. But I don't know where. I attempted to eliminate any main clutch drag with the washers between the pressure plate cover and the flywheel. If there is drag, it didn't help. I know this is ridiculous, but I have split that tractor 4 times -- getting good at it, but it takes a lot of time with limited results each time.

Well with the length of all the clutch linkage any slop in the pedal on the shaft along with any slop in the pin holes ware in the pins and the holes in the torque tube where the shaft goes in all adds up . Now buy placing washer under the PPA this causes the fingers to STAND taller then when they are bolted up proper . Now as engine RPM goes up the fingers will start to stand out some . Get the main clutch set to a happy medium in other word where she will shift and the throw out bearing is just off the fingers . Now sine this tractor has at one time had lots of field testing and excess ware this is where ya THROW the book away and ya learn the new way of adjusting the T/A , ya know that the main clutch is set and it works ok , remove the cove over the T/A clutch and you adjust that so that when ya push the pedal down that it releases the T/A clutch just after the main is coming out but not yet bottomed out on the step , this will take some trial and error to fine tune this as not to get a double shift when ya come off the clutch . After ya get that all ironed out then the next step is readjusting the T/A handle so that it is not pulling to hard on the T/A clutch and not moving when ya push the main clutch pedal down .I have run into this many times and there are them times that the BOOK just don't work and ya have to learn how to make it work . Never try and over think things ya just make it work and as long as it works good then don't go looking for things to fix they will let ya know when they need fixen . You should NEver have to change finger hight . If the step hight on the flywheel is correct then the fingers will lay correct the rest is in worn pins holes and pedal and linkage .Also here i do not remember as i have only worked on a couple Int/ 460 's .One thing here your foot rest is not bent down by anychance and NOT allowing the pedal to come back up to it's proper rest and this would really mess ya up on adjustment. . That clutch should be disengauged before you are half way down . And like always here again i am trying to fix something over the key board with out seeing for myself . Also with the washer under the PPA you are loosing the pressure that the PPa is trying to put on the disc. and in time she will slip.

I have one thought to pass along did you replace pressure plate in tractor,it sounds like worn out pins in pressure plate levers causing lost travel when depressing clutch pedal.Replacing pressure plate only option .

Is there a chance that a loose or worn Drive for the Hydraulic/PTO system (running all the time) could be driving the motion? I am just thinking out loud here. Jim

I believe that (as aluded to in the TV post above) the free clearance on the main throwout bearing to fingers can be 1/16 inch. if it is loose (and affected by the TA rod as it is activated when the clutch pedal is going through its travel) setting it to less clearance will not hurt anything. Many throwout systems are in constant motion and turn with the PP, having the slack in a different place. The key is not so much keeping the bearing from turning, but to keep the Fingers from being in a partial release tension, allowing the clutch to slip, and to have no apparent free play. Jim

Just had another thought in depressing clutch pedal is the clutch rod bending slightly.Had problem like yours years ago on my dads 460.We modified a farmall M clutch rod to fit as it is heavier. Scott

OK, I will try adjusting as you say. The washers have been removed, was just trying to see if the flywheel had possibly been over-machined, I don't think it has. On the 460U, the clutch pedal does not touch the foot rest, a "nub" on the rear of the shaft touches the disk brake housing. I have verified the pedal not hitting the foot rest by photos in the Operator's manual--that is one thing I did question. As to the fingers, they are as close as I can get them to the release bearing without it dragging. If adjusted closer to give less pedal play, they will drag slightly on the bearing causing it to spin slowly. I moved them as a last resort when I did the washers under the pressure plate cover. The main clutch does seem to disengage before the pedal is all the way down, but I need to synchronize the main and TA clutches. Obviously will take a lot of fiddling around. Most of the excess play in the linkage is still in the fork to release sleeve, even though the fork has been brazed and the sleeve is new (not US made), unfortunately. I have thought about using speedi sleeves as bushings, they won't last? -- the other option is have the nubs welded and turned. Thanks for your help.

No, it does not bend -- it would have to bind pretty bad to do that, although it is longer than the rod on the row crop.

Entire clutch has been replaced with rebuilt one--twice. Bent disk the 1st time, because without a pilot tool, it should be installed loose on the shafts, pushed together when putting the tractor together, then bolted on -- learned that the hard way.

PTO is disengaged, but it has its own clutch. I can't see inside the clutch housing, need X-ray vision. I don't understand how it would be affected by hydraulics? Inside the clutch housing, the main shaft and possibly the pto shaft do have some movement -- excessive, I don't know. Any vertical/horizontal movement of the main shaft should be cancelled by inserting into the pilot bearing? If I have to split again I will check that out.

So, you are saying that it is ok for the release bearing to be in contact with the fingers and turn? If so that opens other possibilities. However, I would need just enough tension on the bearing cover so that the fingers do not slip on it. Otherwise they will eventually wear through. In this case, I don't think the clutch will slip if adjusted so that the fingers don't move until the clutch is depressed, but again I can't see inside. It might help if adjusted so that I can stop the bearing rotation with my finger (or amputate my finger if gets caught in the spinning clutch), but the bearing/finger slippage will cause wear.

Sounds like you have a problem similar to the one I had when I replaced the engine clutch in my 544 last spring. The combination of a new engine clutch and an old TA clutch results in a tolerance stack-up such that when the engine clutch is adjusted properly the the TA adjustments lack enough range to be set so that disengaging the engine clutch also disengages the TA clutch. Result: clashing gears. I suggest that you do what I did: set up the engine clutch to spec and then modify the TA linkage as necessary to get it to work (the 460 linkage is quite different from the 544 one, though). If your TA is too far gone you may need to rebuild it (groan...)

Thanks, basically, that is what I am trying to do, just haven't gotten there yet. I think the TA is ok, it engages/disengages and does not slip in low range when the brakes are applied. Engine is completely rebuilt and not fully broken in, so I have not had a load on it to fully test it.

If it is in contact and turns all the time, there might be some pressure on it that would lessen the total pressure on the disk, and that is to be avoided. I feel the clearance can be reduced to .050" or so with no grief. (I would adjust the pedal freeplay to 1.125" and call it good. Then go for the TA adjustment. JimN