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113 or 123 cid engine?

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Phillip

02-12-2004 16:09:32

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What is the difference between the 113 and 123 engine? how can you tell which it is? are the blocks the same. I have heard they are the same except for the cam and crank, is this true? Thank you

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Hugh MacKay

02-13-2004 17:35:30

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Re: 113 or 123 cid engine? in reply to Phillip , 02-12-2004 16:09:32

Philip: Well, did you learn as much as I did on this thread. Dave was definately right on his very first post, you must take them apart and measure. For my part, in the future the C-113 and C-123 engines have 4 cylinders, they make a noise when started and I can tell you how much work they will do. Beyond that I will pretend to know nothing.

I was convinced that I should put a 3-1/4 piston and sleeve kit in my 130 and now Stan tells me I can't even do that. I was going to take it apart before I ordered parts. I will say this guys, I think there is information on this subject we haven't seen yet. Why so many different part numbers????

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Brown Dirt Cowboy

02-14-2004 09:40:10

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Re: Re: 113 or 123 cid engine? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 02-13-2004 17:35:30

Hugh I had my '45 B bored several years ago and am running the3-1/4" bore and recently bought another 3-1/4" piston and sleeve set in case I want to oversize my '40 A. They will go to 3-1/4". When I bought the first set they referred to it as a Super C oversize kit. Crank them RPM's up some and you will have the strongest 140 in Strahroy, Ont. Tom

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Hugh MacKay

02-12-2004 19:11:46

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Re: 113 or 123 cid engine? in reply to Phillip , 02-12-2004 16:09:32

Philip: As Dave said bore is different but not the only difference. All C-123 had factory water pumps, many C-113 have had water pumps added. The block is different on C-123 from early C-113. All Super A's after serial number 310300 have the same block as the C-123 engine and up until serial number 356001 from factory, remained C-113, by use of thicker sleeves and 3" pistons. This last group can be equiped with C-123 sleeves and pistons, and many have been changed at rebuild. The Super A1 after serial number 356001 have C-123 from factory with water pump. The C-113 engines before SuperA serial number 310300, all C's, all A's and B'a will not take the larger sleeve and piston set of C-123 engine.

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Brown Dirt Cowboy

02-13-2004 09:53:06

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Re: Re: 113 or 123 cid engine? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 02-12-2004 19:11:46

Hugh several years ago I had the 113 engine in my B bored out for the 31/4"sleeves and put in domed pistons turned up the RPM's to 2000 put it on dyno and am getting 33horses out of it have been pulling it for 6or7 years now a very strong tractor in up to the 3250# classes Tom

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Dave_Id

02-12-2004 19:32:22

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Re: Re: 113 or 123 cid engine? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 02-12-2004 19:11:46

Are you positive about that? I had a Farmall C with the casting number 251069R1, and it definitely had 3 1/8 pistons in it. Unless they bored it to fit the 123 sleeve set????? It smoked like crazy, definitely time for a rebuild.

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Hugh MacKay

02-12-2004 20:22:27

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Re: Re: Re: 113 or 123 cid engine? in reply to Dave_Id, 02-12-2004 19:32:22

Dave: Good point, I may be wrong on that, I just looked at IT manual for C-123 and C-135 engines. They do use the same block for 3-1/8 and 3-1/4 respectively. There may be the answer. I was in another discussion on this forum and I believe early C-113 can be bored for 3-1/8 sleeves and pistons but not 3-1/4. I am certain they talked boring one of them and there would be no reason to bore the newer C-123 - C-135 block.

I also happened to check the part number on my Super A today C-123 block part number 354898R1. I didn't check the complete number on my 130 or 140, but at a glance could see they were each completely different from Super A. I have also seen two other completely different part numbers from Super A's today, both those had mag ign. None of those 5 part numbers were the same as yours. That doesn't surprise me. I think there are other numbers as well.

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Hugh MacKay

02-13-2004 04:52:11

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Re: Re: Re: Re: 113 or 123 cid engine? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 02-12-2004 20:22:27

Gene & Dave: Are we absolutely sure about all specs on these engines? With Dave's C, that totals 6 of these engines I came in contact with just yesterday and everyone of them had a different part number cast into the block. I know I have been involved in discussions before on this site where an engine had to be bored for larger sleeves and piston. Mt reasoning is there is no situation whereby a C-123 block would need boring. My obvious question is are there some of the early C-113 blocks that will take 3-1/8 and some may not.

The information I have been given for the new block in 1951 with the introduction of the Super C with the C-123 engine was not that IH needed a new casting for the C-123 engine but rather the old C-113 block could not be bored for the 3-1/4 sleeve and piston in the C-135 engine. It was also cost effective to manufacture 3 separate sleeve and piston sets as opposed to two different castings.

I am inclined to think, just maybe Dave was right on his original post," Take the pan off and measure."

Finally gene I said Super A1 with C-123 from factory with water pump, not Super AI (industrial). The Super A1 run from serial number 356001 to 357958, making a total of 1,957 tractors which were in reality Farmall 100 with Super A sheet metal. A few of the SA1 were in fact also industrials.

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Stan(VA).

02-13-2004 05:34:16

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 113 or 123 cid engine? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 02-13-2004 04:52:11

Hugh,
I have posted several times in the archives that there are two basic blocks. Pull the sleeves and you will find either 3 5/16" or 3 7/16" lower sleeve opening. Initially this corresponded to C113/C123 engines untill the C123 was produced in it's 2nd flavor as I posted below. Measuring the piston tells you what's in there now, but doesn't tell you what block you have untill you check the sleeve opening. C113's and late C123's can fit 3" or 3 1/8" pistons; early C123's can have 3", 3 1/8" or 3 1/4" pistons depending on what sleeve kit is currently in there. There now, does that make everything clear as mud! ;) ;)

The other case you referred to of boring blocks to receive a different sleeve set was me too, but that's another discussion and I woln't confuse this one more with that at the moment. It should be in the archives. I have bored 2 C123 blocks and doubt that I'm the first. Stan(VA).

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gene b

02-13-2004 03:33:04

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Re: Re: Re: Re: 113 or 123 cid engine? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 02-12-2004 20:22:27

The 113 engine will take the 3 1/8 sleeve but not the 3 1/4 unless you machine the bottom part of the sleeve to clear the block. Putting 3 1/8 sleeves makes 123cu in. Some early SUPER AI even had the 3in pistons as we found out last fall when we tore one down.

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Stan(VA).

02-13-2004 05:18:12

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 113 or 123 cid engine? in reply to gene b, 02-13-2004 03:33:04

Remember there are two flavors of the C123 blocks. The late Super A/A1, SuperC, 100, 200 have the 3 7/16" lower sleeve opening and can go to the 3 1/4" overbore sets; the late C123 (ie: 130/230/140/240) are more the equivalent of a C113 with the 3 1/8" overbore kit installed at the factory. These latter ones can't go to the 3 1/4" sets like the early ones can. I haven't had a C135 block to play with yet but have assumed they are the equivalent of the early C123 with the 3 1/4" overbore kit installed at factory. They don't list as being the same part number though so there is some other difference, maybe a longer sleeve?

Dave, your C already has had the overbore kit installed in a past overhaul. Phil, the crankshafts are the same untill the x40 series when they switched to a different style water pump and front pulley with a narrow belt. That crank has a threaded end with a nut to hold the pulley instead of press fit.
Stan(VA).

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Hugh MacKay

02-12-2004 20:21:35

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Re: Re: Re: 113 or 123 cid engine? in reply to Dave_Id, 02-12-2004 19:32:22

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Dave_Id

02-12-2004 18:12:43

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Re: 113 or 123 cid engine? in reply to Phillip , 02-12-2004 16:09:32

The bore is 3 1/8 on the 123 and 3 inch on the c113. You can drop the pan and measure the bore.

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