IH 404 w/Farmall C-135 Engine HELP

S.Lawrence

New User
I bought an IH 404 and I think the dang engine is locked up. Of COURSE that wasn't disclosed. I don't know much about tractors, but I do know that I cannot afford to send this one to the local tractor shop. I have read all of the available Farmall forums, and learned to use a screw driver/pry bar to try to spin the fly wheel. It won't spin. Sprayed P-Blaster into each of the spark plug holes a few times several days apart and still cannot move the fly wheel. Can't rock it because the tires are bad and flat. Can anyone tell me what I should do next? attached a picture of the beauty I bought. Under all that paint seems to be a nightmare. The guy said it ran fine 3 years ago. I've pulled the gas tank because there was a lot of rust. ANY help is appreciated. I've Thanks!--Stephanie
<image src="http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/photos/mvphoto11024.jpg"/>
 
Was this tractor stored in a barn or outside? I see there is no rain cap on the exhaust. Since you say the gas tank has a lot of rust I wonder. Otherwise, since you will have to fix the tires anyway, do that first and perhaps try to pull the tractor in gear with the clutch pedal in and letting it out while your moving to try and free up the piston rings. Hope this helps
 
Please do not drag the tractor in gear to try to break it free. If it stopped near TDC on any 2 pistons, it will bend a rod or fracture a piston. Putting good or new tires on it will add to your investment in what could be a money pit. If when you took out the plugs, one was rusty, you need to seriously consider taking the head off to have a look . If not, put at least 1/4 cup ATF (automatic Transmission Fluid) in each of the cylinders. Put a cap on the exhaust. In one week, use a charged battery, and tap the starter several times to see if it even begins to move (watch the fan). Wait a week, do the tap tap thing again. If it moves a bit, back it up with the fan, and do it again. Good luck. Dragging it is a disaster. Jim
 
Since you have the tank off pull the valve cover see if the valves are free. You can tap on them with a rubber hammer. They should move and snap a little when they come back up. If they move down and do not come up stop.
 
Are you sure the starter is not locked up on the ring gear?? Unloosen the starter and then try to turn the engine over....
Cmore
 
This is going to go counter to most people here but considering your professed level of experience, finances, and the condition of the tractor, I recommend you cut your losses and sell the tractor.

That tractor is going to turn into a bottomless money pit. You're going to need to remove the head to assess how badly stuck the engine is. If you don't have an oxy-acetylene torch set to heat up the manifold nuts before you try to loosen them, you will snap off one or more studs in the head. If you don't have the tools to remove the snapped stud(s), you will need to buy the tools or pay a machine shop to remove the studs and install new ones. When you get the head off there's no telling what you'll find, but there's a pretty good chance that the cylinder liners and pistons will be too far gone to save, and you'll need to replace them all. Again, more tools, or pay someone to do it for you. Then there are all the other mechanical problems you'll find once you get it running, plus replacing the tires, etc. etc..

By the time you're done you will easily spend thousands to get this tractor into usable shape. Some of that will be tools you can use on other projects, and the experience will be invaluable. You can stretch this out over years, but if you bought this tractor thinking you could use it now, that probably isn't an option either. As I said, it may be best to cut your losses now, and look for a tractor that you can see and hear running before you buy it.
 
Thank you for being honest. I don't have the torch or many tools...any idea what a tractor place would/should charge to get the engine going?
 
I'm not sure about that. The tow truck driver had limited knowledge of tractors, but he believed it needed a new starter, so I paid to have that done. I don't know what a ring gear is, but I will trace the starter stuff and see where it connects.
 
Another tractor guy said I should sell it. That's probably what I'll end up doing, if I cannot find a way to work on it. I'll take $1,250 for it.
 
Thanks 504! Someone mentioned needing a torch to loosen the head bolts. Do you think I'll need it? Also, what happens if the valves move up and down with the rubber mallet? Put a new gasket and the cover back on? Really appreciate your time!-Stephanie
 
Thanks Jim! None of the plugs were rusty at all. In fact, they looked great, as does the oil on the dipstick (no evidence of water). I've been wondering what ATF was in all these forums. I'll definitely do the 1/4 cup thing. What do you mean a cap on the exhaust? Put a cap of ATF in there? or simply cover the exhaust? This tractor is in my barn. Finally, sorry for the questions...what do you mean by tapping the starter? Literally, tap on the starter? or connect the charged battery and try to start it? Thanks for telling me not to drag it. I don't know what TDC is. All the Best!--Stephanie
 
Before I bought it, it was parked in a field for 3 years. Now, it's in my barn. I don't what which pipe is exhaust when you say it doesn't have a rain cap. If you're talking about the silver one, it does have a flapper thing on the top of it and the flapper is down. Tires are really expensive for this one. I'm thinking it'd be better to wait on tires...until I see what I can afford to do with this engine. Thank you!--Stephanie
 
Tapping the starter means connect the battery and momentarily hit start. TDC = top dead centre. The utmost extent of upward travel of the piston, after which it starts to move down to bottom dead centre. Put a can or something over the top of the exhaust pipe to prevent any water getting in, critically important if the tractor is sitting outside unused. Often vertical exhausts have flappers on top that will blow open from the exhaust pressure when they run, like a dryer vent at the side of the house. You did check to see that the transmission is in neutral? Are you pushing the clutch pedal down to disconnect the engine from the transmission when you are trying to start, (if this is a standard transmission). The PTO (power take-off) is in the disengaged (out/off) position?
 
Whew! Wealth of knowledge! Thanks!! I did check to make sure the transmission is in neutral. And OH NO, I did not push the clutch pedal down when trying to start it. And the brake was not on to stop the PTO. Like, I can walk behind it and spin it by hand.

Let me ask you...to turn the fly wheel, would the clutch have to be depressed and PTO brake have to be on, for it to move?
 
YouTube videos could help you a lot. You need to learn so you don't
pay a lot of money for unnecessary work. There are even a few women
who produce videos on mechanical things although equipment and wrenches
and nuts and bolts don't care who works on them.

There are a lot of possibilities in addition to a locked up engine.
Clutch could be rusted to flywheel. Transmission and differential
could be stuck in frozen condensed water. Starter could be jammed
and stuck in the ring gear.

Remove the bolts that hold the starter to the block in
case the starter is locked up on the flyhweel.

A mix of half ATF and half acetone works better and is
much cheaper than PB Blaster. Keep it off the paint, though.

Inflate the tires and try rocking the tractor in high gear.
Will the tractor roll in neutral? Alternatively, jack up
one rear wheel so you can try to rotate it.

Buy or borrow a bore scope (gun tool) to look in the cylinders
with a dental mirror. On the off chance the seller was truthful
about that "ran good three years ago" claim you may have very
light rust holding the rings tight in one or more cylinders.
 
Thanks Steve! I'm not mechanically inclined, but I follow directions well. :) I successfully pulled the fuel injection pump off of my IH 664 with directions a repair guy gave me over the phone. Ha ha! I didn't put it back on though, b/c I was worried about some key position that "had" to be perfect. Unfortunately, 3/4 tires are flat...not just flat, but blown apart. One rear is still good. It rolled off the rollback when they put it in the barn. It will not roll at all now b/c they are so torn up. So, if there's rust in the cylinders, what do I do? Also, it's 70 degrees here...the transmission and differential shouldn't be stuck in frozen condensed water, right? Could I find this out by jacking that flat wheel up and trying to spin it? Do I need to depress the clutch to try to move the flywheel? I really appreciate your help!
 
I think you should make the attempt to get it turning first. (I believe women have fewer problems fixing things like this because they read more and have fewer incorrect notions. They also have just as much capacity to learn it)
The engine is a wet sleeve design. That means that each cylinder is a separate tube that is held in the main body of the engine (block). These "tubes" are sealed at the bottom with a rubber Oring, and have a ring around the top that keeps them in place. The deal here is that they can be taken out and replaced with new sleeves and pistons to make it new again. If you live in a rural area, you might take on a FFA helper (young man or woman) to assist and have more than one person to make it easier. Many are looking for projects to do for class. (don't let them do it, let them assist you) Jim
 
Thanks Jim! "Rural" is an understatement at the farm and I couldn't find any FFA chapter within 50 miles of me. Ha ha! I'm going to give it a shot!
 
I agree with Jim in that you should try getting the engine turning over before anything else. The fact it rolled off the trailer indicates that it wasn't frozen or locked up. Is the battery good? 6 volt battery should be near 7 volts, 12 volt almost 13. Are the battery connections good and tight? Did you take the starter off and then try to pry the flywheel around?

Then pour the ATF/acetone mixture and let it sit for a week or more. Then try prying again or put the starter back in, hit the starter a few quick times to see if it moves any.

If you have to take the head off, then I agree with Barnyard, start looking for another tractor. Removing the head is opening up the money pit, Lots of time and money can happen. But if you have lots of money and time is of no value, go at it. But don't expect much satisfaction unless you like pain and suffering.
 
If it has been 70 degrees a while, it is not likely you have ice
in the case, That's for those of us farther north. There are guys
here who revive old tractors, and know enough to teach a college
course.

Take this tractor a step at a time and the guys will walk you through it.

Leave the spark plugs out. Keep putting oil/jungle juice of some sort
in the holes. For the flat tires, jack one rear up and then see if you
can turn it.
 
My wife points out that there might be a 4-H club in your township. (We were leaders for a local club) My wife has also pulled the head and replaced the head gasket on her work car (similar size to your IH) and learned a lot. Jim
 
Didn't know rolling was an indication that it wasn't locked up. Battery was fully charged. I haven't taken the starter off, but I'm going to do that now that you've suggested it. Just did the ATF thing, now I'm waiting. I have not taken the head off. Really appreciate your post! I'll keep everyone posted.
 
I did basically what Steve in Mo suggested... with my SMTA.

I jacked up one wheel and placed it on a homebrew wood timber stand (sort of like a T-shape upside down with gussets) under the axle housing. PLaced tractor in 5th gear (highest/road gear)

I removed all 4 spark plugs, carefully noting the position of each plug wire.

Then I squirted Kroil into the cylinders, I'm going to guess enough to put 1/8" on each piston...not enough to totally hydrolock the engine but enough to wet the ring packs thoroughly and replaced the spark plugs by hand.

Every day I went out and rocked the wheel a bit. Not super hard or aggressive but just enough to let it know I was there.

After a week's time it freed right up. My tractor was "barn locked" basically by nobody driving it for ~15 years. My relatives had kept it under roof during that time so I knew it wasn't filled up with rainwater.

I did get the starter pinion locked into the flywheel at one point...its going to need a rebuild soon.
 
You are too funny! I wish it was a joke! I couldn't get the flywheel to spin, so I sold the tractor on Friday to a man who restores tractors about an hour from me. I told him not to make it all pretty, but get it running and I'd like the opportunity to buy it back. He said he would do that. I appreciate everyone's help! Y'all scared me with the "Money Pit" problem I might have if I opened the block.
 

Interesting theme and I learned something today. I ain't no mechanic but I ain't got a lot of other options either. I bought a IH404 last year and it ran great. It sat over the winter outdoors but I did have a big sheet of roof tin strapped over it since my tractor shed was not completed then.

Now it doesn't want to start, I had the carb rebuilt at a nearby equipment company, reinstalled but still won't do more than sputter and spit. Added new plugs and and not it sputters and spits for 5 or 10 minutes but not runs smooth or full power. Next I'll install the new points, rotor, shield, cap, wires and new coil. Didn't have the right tools last trip to the "farm".

I need to replace the manifold as the exhaust pipe threads are stripped and the PO just had an old muffler he stuck in the hole. I was thinking of making a new bolt plate and welding the short pipe to that but I see I can get a new manifold for a reasonable price. [b:2906c649c0]what I learned was [/b:2906c649c0] was I need to drag my torch out there and heat up the manifold bolts before trying to pull them.

Any thoughts on carburetor adjustments or any other ideas to get this back running strong like last it was last year would be greatly appreciated. I'm needing to bush hog before the brambles win this battle.
 

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