super a still leaking coolent into the oil

scott1953

Member
Hi Guys,

I can't seem to fix this leak. I've got coolent leaking into the oil. It takes about 1/2 of running to contaminate the oil big time.

So, I replaced the head gasked....no change

Then I pulled out the cylinder sleeves replaced the o-rings, sent the head to be checked, checked the block deck to be sure it is flat. Left the pan off after reinstalling the sleeves and filled the block with antifreeze...no leaking of antifreeze.

Sleeve protrusion above the deck ws .007 on all cylinders.

Replaced the head gasked...retorqued.

I am new at all this engine work.

Again, took about 20 minutes of running....leaking continues..oil totally contaminated with antifreeze.


Gotta be a cracked block....I think. So, I'm concluding its really not worth going any further on this.

I'm thinking to selling some of the parts...carburetor is new for example and just junking the tractor.

What do you all think of my new plan?

And again, thanks for all your help in doing the above work...you guy are a good bunch.

Scott
 
Wow, Scott. For someone new to engine work, you've done a lot of study and hands on. Kudos.

Sounds like you've checked the "usual culprits". Perhaps a bit of history might help. If I've missed it in a previous post, point me there.

How long have you had this tractor? When did the problem first occur?
Does this engine have a water pump, or is it Thermo-syphon? Pressure cap on the radiator, or atmospheric? Any 'steam' or noticeable anti-freeze smell from the exhaust?

It certainly seems that either heat or the pressure of combustion is pushing the coolant. I've read of cases where the head develops a crack that can leak coolant to the oil. One of the sleeves may have a crack.

I have a SA that came to me 10 years ago with the block badly freeze cracked and compromised. Still running it, and it still doesn't leak coolant to the oil. I'm sorta doubtful the block is your problem.
 
They do have a sealer for that type of a leak but you would need to add a waterpump to keep the coolant moving while it seals. It has worked on engines overbored ect for pulling and has worked fine
 

Thanks for the kind words. It took me over a month to do that work. I learned so much from this forum and other sources online.

I've had the tractor for 3 years. I change the oil once a year (only put 25 hours per year on it. The first year it think the oil looked a bit off...but being new to this stuff...I didn't recognise it as an issue. Second year looked like chocloate milk. Understood that was a prob and changed the head gasket for the first time.

Thought is was ok...however one year later (this fall) changed oil again....same ugly picture. Sent sample to blackstone...water and 8% gasoline in oil. Ugh

Then around Christmas tore it down and I described.

There is no water pump on this tractor is it Thermo-syphon.

I did have a machine shop check the heads.

The sleeves looked good, I honed them, put in new rings. Could the sleeves have been cracked and not been visible?

Must be a really significant leak....

I wiped out the gunk in the block the looked close for visible cracks...there were none .

Hate like hell to sell what parts I can , then junk it....but I'm at a loss as to what to do.

:(
 

they are usually magna fluxed, or pressure checked.
it may be a crack that opens up when hot.
since u have it all together i would run it, pull the pan, check for leaks while warm by placing a card board under it and looking with a good light. also would see about pressuring the rad at the same time.
that seams like a big leak and should not be that terrible to find.
have you checked for bubbles in the rad when running? i presume its the block at fault. you would tell it its getting water in upper cyl.

dont give up now.
 
Ah, so they only checked the combustion chambers, made sure the valves were seated well. End of test.

There is a coolant cavity around each combustion chamber that on the spark plug side, has a large exposure directly to the oil drain space from the valve cover. Castings have been known to have defects in out of the way places, like a sand 'pit' that may have started corroding through from the water jacket side, but gets worse with time. Kinda makes me go "hmmmm..."

Before you consider scrapping this tractor, ask if anyone on the forum might be close to you and have a spare head sitting around they might let you borrow as a test. At the moment, I just pulled a functional head to do some other work on an SA, but I'm about 8 hours away, it isn't getting shipped, and I have too much on my list to arrange a trip that way. Sorry. :-(
 

So your thinking head problem.

Would it make sense to bring the head back a shop to be magna fluxed....another reply seemed to lean in that direction

I really don't want to give up on this thing..esp based on what you all are saying

I'm definitely too far from you...but thanks for even thinking of it.

Also I noticed a tiny bit of oil maybe oozing out at the head gasket.

Just a tiny but, no acutall dripping.
 

Not sure if this helps anything, but here is a pic of the block.

Should I have sprayed some kind of crack indicator in there to find a crack?
45990.jpg
http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/photos/45990_sml.jpg
 
Before you take it all apart drop the engine oil pan. Clean off as much oil & coolant as you can. Put a low air pressure into the cooling system. Most times you can see where the coolant is coming in. It is really hard to determine where a leak is coming from with it all apart.
 
The sleeve protrusion of .007 is tooooo much. You have some good suggestions here but we all do things differently. I would give it a cylinder leakage test. Adapt a air fitting to a old spark plug and use regulated air pressure if available. Full pressure works fine just if not exactly top dead center makes it more difficult as engine will spin and then you start over . You need the testing cylinder on exact top dead center compression stroke. Apply air pressure and look for leaks into cooling system. No leak, no worry about sleeve protrusion or head cracked.

Another quick check, but I doubt this one is going to show your particular problem, is to fill radiator to the tippet top, remove water pump belt if equipped and start engine. If coolant rises , you have combustion leak. Of course that won't show which cyl or part of engine involved like individual leak down test.

As far as bubbles in radiator, not a valid test unless it was a geyser. Friend of mine put a 300 together and coolant went into oil immediately. .008 sleeve protrusion on that one. He actually milled the block with sleeves installed rather than than machine sleeve flange or counter bore. Took care of it .

Pressurizing radiator is also a good test but then you will have engine partially torn down to look under. I would do cyl leak test first if I was working on it . Kind of non invasive surgery .
 
Guess I figured he would know that. My bad. The thing is if combustion leak it will push coolant right up within about 30 seconds. Reving the engine up and down helps to put more pressure in cylinder to increase chance of this showing up a leak.

I also should have said, if you look at the top of that block on the tractor , you will see that the coolant passage is very close to the push rod passage. With that much sleeve flange protrusion, you could easily lose a lot of clamping on the head gasket right next to that coolant passage and allow for a leak there. That leak would not show up with a cylinder leakage test but would with the radiator pressure test.
 
I agree with Pete 23 in that the protrusion is way too much. That much sticking out causes the head to be jacked up at the
cylinders. This causes less clamping pressure on all remaining surfaces.
I believe pulling the pan, and putting 5 psi (only)in the radiator will show the problem. If the dripping comes from the holes
connected to the lifter gallery, it is either the head gasket between coolant jacket and oil holding areas. It could be a cracked
head away from the combustion chambers. Jim
 
I had one of those "DOH!" moments after my last post, about 100 yards down the road. A year ago I made up some PVC plumbing parts to pressurize a radiator with air to find and fix the leaks. Got parts to fit the ID of the hose, adapted down to a mini regulator and the 1/4" air chuck for one end and a cap for the other. Cost about $10 total, IIRC. If the motor is still together, pull the radiator, put the test set-up on the hoses to the motor and clamp well. Apply pressure of up to 10 PSI and see where it's hissing. You should be able to feel it.

According to official IH specs, the C123 (and c113) engine sleeve protrusion is 0.000 to +0.006. One more thou may or may not be the problem. I'd be wondering if all of the sleeves are the same height, or if there are some higher than others, and why it wasn't corrected when the last one in there put it together before Scott got it. ("Hey Bubba, put another grunt on the tork-rensh - I can still see daylite under the head") I'd be taking the sleeves in to the machine shop, marked for their positions, and an exact measurement of sleeve height, that each can be dressed to be .002-.003 above deck.
 
Hello Scott, Sorry to read about your misfortune on your project. Take a break but don't give up on it, you'll get to the bottom of the problem. Then you can decide which direction to go. So far you are not out a bunch except your labor.
I think we all agree that the sleeves are a bit high but we discussed in your last thread what the option is. My book on a C113 engine does not give a spec for protrusion, so what is right? Later wet sleeve engines as a general rule run .002-.005 protrusion but I am not convinced yet that that is your problem. For one thing your sleeves have been at that height since installed, when ever that was. Unless they are nearly new I doubt the engine has been passing coolant since then, but possible I suppose. Also, the cooling system is not pressurized, so nothing to force it past the gasket unless there is a gap.
Next step would be as others have suggested, remove pan, pressurize cooling system ( 5psi or so) and watch for the leak.

Questions-- Do you have antifreeze in it and have you seen antifreeze in the oil? Does your cooling system level drop?
Could it possibly be hydraulic oil mucking up your oil instead of coolant? As in a leaking hyd. pump shaft seal? Just things to think about.
There are several of us interested in your progress.
Keep up the good work.
Dennis
 
(quoted from post at 10:04:35 02/24/17)
Thanks for the kind words. It took me over a month to do that work. I learned so much from this forum and other sources online.

I've had the tractor for 3 years. I change the oil once a year (only put 25 hours per year on it. The first year it think the oil looked a bit off...but being new to this stuff...I didn't recognise it as an issue. Second year looked like chocloate milk. Understood that was a prob and changed the head gasket for the first time.

Thought is was ok...however one year later (this fall) changed oil again....same ugly picture. Sent sample to blackstone...water and 8% gasoline in oil. Ugh


Then around Christmas tore it down and I described.

There is no water pump on this tractor is it Thermo-syphon.

I did have a machine shop check the heads.

The sleeves looked good, I honed them, put in new rings. Could the sleeves have been cracked and not been visible?

Must be a really significant leak....

I wiped out the gunk in the block the looked close for visible cracks...there were none .

Hate like hell to sell what parts I can , then junk it....but I'm at a loss as to what to do.

:(

I have found on my Super A with thermo siphon cooling that milky oil is a part of life. It just doesn't warm up enough with light usage to boil the water out of the oil. Are you sure it's coolant in the oil and not condensed water? Are you running antifreeze in the coolant, then it would be easy to tell by smell/color. Does the coolant level in the radiator drop?
 

Interesting, but when I sent the oil to Blackstone labs, they tell me it is heavily contaminated. Lots of lead in the oil indication of bearing wear they tell me.

But your right, It doesn't get very hot.

Again thank you all for your advises and support and understanding of my limited mechanical knowledge/abilities.

I was discouraged. But I have enough ideas to re-approach this after taking a little break as Dennis suggested.

One question however....I'm using 50/50 anitfreeze mix...would I be able to smell or taste antifreeze in the oil? Its just that the radiator level does not seem to have gone down.

Scott
 
Back in the day of leaded gasoline it was very common for oil to
turn gray. Funny thing was it would do it in one engine and not
another and caused a lot on consternation.
 
Scott, I think your problem may have been solved: If the oil level isn't increasing, and if the lab is finding water but not ethylene glycol, and the coolant in the radiator doesn't seem to be going anywhere, it's the standard thermosyphon "ya ain't workin' the snot out of 'er" problem. Shoot, I DO work my SA and still have moisture in the oil / 'cheese' in the rocker cover breather. Though I'm still a bit confused about how you know the problem is back after a half hour of running.

IH must have been aware of the warm-up issue. I see in the parts catalog that there was a late model thermo-syphon with a thermostat for the SA with C123 engine. Housing part # is 257353R2, 165-195 deg thermostat #257440, and retainer ring 257441. JFYI, a search turned up used housings for sale.

Keep us posted on what you conclude.
 
i was just thinking if you filled the rad with kerosene or diesel and run it like that for a bit. keep an eye on the oil level and color and vis. i sure dont see how condesation can change oil color in 1/2 an hr. many an old cat. used diesel as a coolant.
and the other thing is to use straight water if you know you have a leak. anti freeze will find its way out when water wont. i have seen head gaskets seal themselves once run warm. also many head gaskets have the sealant built into them and they must be run warm to get them to seal. did you put the gasket on dry? or use a sealant?could also put some dye in the rad to help locate leak. even the old 350 chev head gasket was basically just thin metal.never saw one leak. stompin tom would say, "this aint over yet".
 
Good morning Scott,
You have lots of support here from folks in the know. While you are taking your break, bet you can't stand it, leave everything in tact. After a few days, a week maybe, loosen the drain plug until you get some drips, the first few should be antifreeze if it's in there. If a couple drips or none, move on, it's not a problem.

BTW how were your bearings when you had them out?

My opinion on oil scans;
A one off oil scan generally doesn't tell you much. Oil scans are designed to be used on a regular basis so a trend can be developed. Then a flag is raised if something changes. At that time you decide what needs to be done. Every engine or compartment has its own characteristics much like a blood test.
Water in your scan could have been just condensation.

Talking about condensation, recently I have seen water beads on the casings of a couple of my tractors while sitting in an unheated shop. It has been very wet here this winter and humidity has a big effect.

Don't get discouraged
Dennis
 

Here is how I've decided there is a leak...I so could be wrong about this but..

Both before and after the work I've done. I start with fresh oil...run it for 20 minutes or so, put a few drops of oil on the hot maniford and it just smokes....oil from my car behavies the same way on a hot maniford.

The next day, I run it for 1/2 hour or so...now the oil boils on the hot maniford. I do the exact same proceedure with my car as kind of an experimental control (I'm a retired science teacher..old habit die hard)

Its a real boil...lasting 10 seconds or so, then smoke. The car oil just smokes.

I drain some oil out of the drain plug into a glass jar and it looks ugly. Took this jar of oil to my mechanic and he and his guys say...thats bad.


I'm going to attached a copy of the oil analysis done recently which prompted me to start all this work...although I don't see how to do that.

I do only run this tractor 25 hours a year.

Again, thanks

Scott

Here is the commentary from the analysis done after about 20 hours of running (8 months or so) I added a fuel shutoff and replaced the carburetor (could not get the old carb to not run too rich)

[i:d4303442fe]SCOTT: This oil was extremely contaminated -- mostly by fuel, but also by a little water and possibly some
coolant too. Fuel dilution read at 8.0% of the sample, as indicated by the low flashpoint, and that lowered
the viscosity and diluted the oil quite a bit. We're also seeing a little sodium, which is a possible sign of
coolant contamination, and there was water present in the oil as well. Insolubles read high, showing
oxidation of the oil. Wear isn't much worse than last time, but still -- bearing wear is quite high and this fuel
could be diluting metals quite a bit too.[/i:d4303442fe]

It just occurred to me....Have I been barking up the wrong tree?

Is that boiling gasoline???? How is it getting in there.


[/b]
 
You have gotten much good advice from here,but here is how I would check it:

Fill rad.

Remove oil pan

put pressure tester on rad. and pump it up to about 7-10 lbs.

get under tactor and look up,should be able to see where anti freze is comeing from.


Just my way.
 
would be nice to see the color of that oil, and the running time on each check.
appears to me that that tractor is never getting to operating temperature. cover the rad and let it get hot when your using it. that explains the fuel in the oil. and also the low vis. causing brg. wear. it may also be running way too rich also.
and is this dilution taking place after 1/2 hr. OR 25 hrs.??? seams like a different picture is coming.
 


I suspect I (I really mean we) found the problem. I hope.

I did the leak down test in all cylinders..careful to be at TDC on each. About 20 to 30% leak on all, all through the crankcase breather tube.

There was no bubbling in the radiator for any cylinder. Air pressure was about 100 psi.

However cylndr # 4 had 90% leak...a lot was through the carb.

Also, I have been having trouble adjusting the intake valve on this #4 cylinder. In fact I have not been able to adjust it The screw is stuck I cant move it at all. So that intake valve is never closing all the way. Its been this way since I've had it.

I did't thing it was a big deal....but...is that how the gasoline is getting into the oil...intake valve never closing. Last analysis had it a 8% gasoline in the oil.

It that boiling gas not water?

I think this whole problem (contaminated oil...excess bearing wear) has been the valve and gas, not the coolent and the head or head gasket.


Boy learning is hard work!

Any thoughts

And again, thank you for sticking with me an enduring my long posts :D
 
Fuel in the oil is a function of running overly rich and leaky rings. Improper timing may contribute too. The leaky intake valve wouldn't do it.

Of course your car oil will have very little moisture in it: for environmental reasons the crankcase is a far more 'sealed' system, you use it nearly every day, and it has a thermostat in the cooling system to keep the temp at or near 190. Comparing your car oil to your SA oil is apples and oranges. Your tractor will accumulate water in the oil just sitting in an unheated barn/shed/garage overnight. If you used your car only 25 hours a year, you'd get moisture in that crankcase as well, just not as much as your SA, and it would cook out quicker. An oil analysis service isn't going to take those differences into consideration. I would be more concerned with the metal in the oil, though it's possible that your regular oil changes are 'washing out' a previous owner's lack of maintenance.

I wouldn't be afraid of putting some heat on that rocker screw, though it's hard to believe it's froze up, unless the threads are completely galled. Does that rocker ever get clearance on the valve stem? or is the valve stuck? or is the lifter somehow stuck? How much 'lift' are you seeing on that rocker? Any way to measure and compare?
 
ooh wow, were getting there. any time the head is off or for a retorque the valves MUST be re-adjusted. so this tractor has been running on three cyl's for who know's how long. without the valves closing you will have no compression and that explains the gas in oil.no compression... no fire! it has to go out the exhaust or past the piston rings. to adjust the valves you must get each cyl. at TDC on compression starting with #1 . follow the firing order 1342 and set in that order. i believe the valve setting is .014 on that engine. valve adjustment should be done every so often depending on working hrs. as the valve and seat wear decrease the gap. once the gap is tight you burn the valve. pushrod and rocker and lifter wear increases the gap. important step to do in a full tune up.
and doing regular compression checks at tune up time tells the engines condition, along with reading the spark plugs.
you will have this thing running like a swiss watch soon.and you were gonna junk it.
 

Hi WellWorn...no clearance at all. I can't even get a .oo3 feeler gauge in there.

And that adjusting screw it immobile. The local garage I use said he'd help me get it unstuck. So I'll take it down to him monday. He teaches me a lot like you all do.

Maybe with the new rings, new carb, fixed valve, I'll be good.
 

I thing your right....like a Swiss watch...yeah, I was a bit discouraged and really did not realize what a resource this forum is.



:)
 
Good deal, Scott. Don't be surprised if the oil continues to get milky. I plow snow with my super A with newspaper completely covering the grille to block airflow, and the oil still gets milky. Getting that valve adjusted correctly will definitely help.
 
(quoted from post at 14:33:05 02/25/17) Good deal, Scott. Don't be surprised if the oil continues to get milky. I plow snow with my super A with newspaper completely covering the grille to block airflow, and the oil still gets milky. Getting that valve adjusted correctly will definitely help.


Yes, I checked with one of those point and shoot thermometers. The inlet on the radiator only gets to 145 or so....I'll try the newspaper idea when I'm plowing snow....to cook off some of the condensation that develops

Thanks Pete
 

I took that break you all suggested. Now I'm back. It took the rocker arm shaft to my buddy at the local garage. He had to heat it up a good bit to finally free up the stuck tappet adjusting screw. It was pretty frozen, threads were ok.

Put it back on the tractor, checked the head torque and adjusted the tappet clearance. Boy that frozen one took quite a few turns to get it to give the the right clearance.

I changed the oil. Did not see any green antifreeze in the oil. but it looked ugly.

Took it out for a spin, worked the snot out of it, getting it up to full temperature...hotter than it normally gets when I mow the lawn at 1/2 throttle. Antifreeze did start coming out the overflow when it got hot. I drove up and down our street, doing doughnuts, cutting off Corollas and out running the local police. After doing this a few times over a few days. I look at the oil in a glass jar and it looks normal!

It pretty much looks like fresh oil I also have in a glass jar to compare.

I think I'm good! :D :D

I can't thank you all enough for your help and support. I learned so much and have printed this thread out too keep in the manual. So much information here.

I was close to just packing it in....

If you all live nearby, the beer would be on me.

Cheers and my best to you all!!
 
Great news Scott and a lot of satisfaction. Glad we could keep you going on it.
Unless the coolant level is down an inch or two it is normal for some to come out the over flow when heated up.
I'm sure the SA was glad to get all that exercise and you with a big smile on your face. Thanks for the beer offer, but you are a long ways away from the left coast.
Have fun
Dennis
 

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