Farmall 460 vs 560

MDNOBLE

Member
Hello everyone

I've been looking to add a more reliable tractor to use around home so I can do more work on the M. I had my heart set on a 560. Mostly, it'd be used to possibly move round bales, run shredder, springtooth, blade snow and other chores etc.

I wanted to ask for opinions of those who have owned either or both. I'm wondering if a 460 would be big enough. I'd like to keep something about the same size as a M, from what I've heard, a 560 decended from the M, and 460 decended from the H. Would a 460 even be able to keep up with a M?
 
We had a 460 for over 30 years. It was the main tractor on the place for 20 of those years. You name the job, the 460 did it including pulling the forage harvester with the wagon behind. A real workhorse although not a powerhouse. Later we got a 560
Diesel. Heavier, more powerful, a hoss. Both very good workaholics. Now an 826 has replaced them.
 
I've heard the diesels are hard to start, especially in the winter? so I think gas would be best for me. Glad to know the 460 can hold its own, I've heard some people really trash talk them.

I've never done it, but how hard is it to put a wide front on one? Will a wide front off any other models fit?
 
A wide from an M up to a 1256 will bolt right on. Not a big job. Take a couple hrs or so. Be careful,donot get directly under
the tractor while changeing. A helper is not completely nessesary,but it really helps.
 
Wide front change is not bad.Six to eight bolts, good jacks and blocking. What fits a 460 fits a 560.Also a lot of the newer tractors 706,656 and up until they went to a hydraulic steering cylinder at the
axle. Story from dad was he replaced a M that was souped up with a 400 and it couldn't pull what the M did so he souped the 400. When the 560 came out he did not have to put the clutch in when chopping tall
corn so it was better.Brother still has the 460 which is close to a standard M for power. Cut a lot of hay with a 9 foot haybine. It is better on fuel than the 560. Always thought we could do most of the
things the 560 could do but a gear slower unless you needed the traction. 560 could hold a 4 row cultivator on the hills better because of the extra weight.656 is nice, better hydraulics, three point etc but
also more expensive.Ride is different and most of the time with fenders you need to get on in front of the back wheel, not that that is bad but different.
 
Only reason I can see for getting a 460 over a 560 is if used for work that less weight is better or you want the best in fuel use. Proper running 560D does pretty good on fuel also. Both tractors are mostly the same overall size except for the heavier drive train of the 560, so if you don't need less weight or a little better fuel use why not get the most tractor. Gasoline 560 will use as much or more fuel than a M if working hard though. If a M has a warmed up engine from original like a lot do and runs good a stock 460 won't get down and pull with one. Don't think a stock 460 will lug with a M just equipped with 4 inch pistons and tuned good. But a 460 has or can have a lot more handy features. Some changed the 460 engines to 560 size and used them but that's taking a chance on the drivetrain.
Just my opinion so take with a grain of salt. Would really rather have a nice 656.
 
If you really want something that will keep up with a good healthy M, don't waste your time or money on a 460. These guys who say that a 460 can keep up with an M must never have used a 460 for anything but raking hay or pulling a cart.

I know on paper that the 460 has more horsepower than an M, but very few M's remained stock. Rebuilt with overbore pistons and shave down the head, and the M's putting out 45-50HP with four big pistons on a long stroke. The 460 is a short stroke engine with small pistons, not good for torque, not good for lugging.
 
A 460 has 46 hp at the drawbar and weighs from 5800 to 8900 depending on how it is set up. An M has 33 hp at the drawbar and weighs 4800 to 6700 depending on your set up - and that's using the most reliable testing devised for farm tractors. With IPTO and live hydraulics the 460 is many times more useful than an M (there's a reason every tractor made from the mid 1960s on has these options). If you can find a decent 460 (both the 460 and the 560 got worked to death because of their usefulness) I don't know why you would even consider an M. With a LOT of work (and an equal amount of money) you might be able to get an M up to a 460 in power but you still won't have an IPTO or live hydraulics - unless you out bid a collector on a SMTA. For that reason I'd look real hard at 400 or a 450 before I'd consider an M or a SMTA.


"Mostly, it'd be used to possibly move round bales, run shredder, springtooth, blade snow and other chores etc."


For those chores you'll want a 460 or a 560 (or a 400-450). To do half of them you'll want live hydraulics and IPTO - power steering would be nice too when you are moving big round bales around unless your arms are a lot bigger than mine. What someone said about a 656 is true - about the same hp and options as a 560 but in a much nicer and easier to use package.
 
The diesel engines in the 460 and 560 both need a full set of working glow plugs to start in the winter, a block heater helps to. You could tell when a glow plug wasn't working on our 560. The crank time doubled and the tractor spent the first couple minutes blowing smoke like an old steam engine - definitely not something you left idling in an enclosed machine shed and less you wanted to kill all the mice - let alone the humans. It needed the glow plugs to start year around but the colder it was the more important it was that everything was working correctly. I spent a lot time pitching silage by hand because the old man wouldn't start the diesel tractor that had the loader on it.
 

Also, the 460 evolved from the H, Super H, 300, 350, and then the 460.

The 560 evolved from the M.

The 460 and the M may have similar horsepower, but the longer stroke of the M will allow it to outpull the 460.
 
So you are saying the Nebraska tests are wrong? The 460 was "rated" by IH at 45 HP drawbar and achieved 45.38 hp drawbar when tested. It was belt tested at 49.47 hp. The 400 was observed with a maximum hp of 45.34 - amazing how close the two were in testing.


Where did you get 35 hp drawbar from? That is 75% calculated maximum hp.


http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2139&context=tractormuseumlit


M farmall test data:


http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1491&context=tractormuseumlit
 
That pretty close to the 350 Farmall's numbers:


http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1012&context=tractormuseumlit

Actually I didn't know it made 37 hp at the tests - I had always thought it was 35.
 
I had a SMTA as my big tractor for quite a few years, was a little short on the pull swather in heavy thick hay. Summer before this one I purchased a 560D. It needed some work on hydraulics and pto but it is a lot more tractor than the SMTA. Also uses far less fuel doing the same work. For a while I wondered if my new fuel guage was bad because it didn't seem to use any fuel. I haven't had experience with the 460 but definitely like my 560. I don't start it that much in cold weather but when I have it starts good. I have one heavyier battery. I used a 656 that belonged to a neighbor a few times and it started really hard, probably the particular tractor.
 
You can get different number depending on where you look. I used tractor data but found a chart that gives different number.
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(quoted from post at 05:43:14 12/06/16) don't waste your time or money on a 460. These guys who say that a 460 can keep up with an M must never have used a 460 for anything but raking hay or pulling a cart.
I have farmed with both and I can tell you that the 460 would out-pull the M hands down. Also seemed to run cooler and about the same on fuel. I'd rather run a 460 all day than an M.
 
What you are TOTALLY ignoring is the fact that M's were rarely rebuilt stock. It's not terribly difficult to get an M to put out 45HP with off-the-shelf parts and no unusual machine work. Use overbore firecrater or step-head pistons, and plane the head and deck a few thousandths each. 45HP easy as pie with lots more lugging torque.

460's were universally rejected around my home town because they offered no improvement over the Ms they were being sold to replace. Most bought 560s.
 
It of course will depend on the overall condition of the two tractors. A good 460 would be better than a worn 560. Now, that being said, a 560 is a hell of a lot more tractor than a 460 ever was. I have had a whole lot of each apart when they were new and when they were worn out.
Also, the later it was manufactured has a lot to do with several improvements, not just the final drive.

As far as an M with gasoline head, fire crater pistons, they will turn right close to 50 horse power on the dynamometer. Most flat head pistons, gasoline head M's were right abut 44. Due to the TA a 460 might be able to keep up with them depending on the job.
 
Yes I am ignoring it, because most Ms are lucky to be putting out stock hp, some where rebuilt to get more HP and you still had tractor with no live hydraulics and or IPTO. And if it was rebuilt 40 years ago it doesn't mean it still has that bump up in hp today. I can get 200 hp out of a 1586 without issue, but that doesn't make it a MX 215.
 
Actually Most Ms are putting out more than stock hp. I have a dyno and I can tell you that even a weak M has 45 hp. A 450 with off the shelf the parts will put out 65 hp. 70hp is not hard at all to get.
 
In the early 70s we had an M along with a 460 and a 560 diesel (and several others). Our dad was always on us about why we would use the 460 when the M had so much more power. Our "seat of the pants" estimate was the 460 had a LOT more power than the M. Finally came to head one day when dad stopped my brother from hooking the 460 to our grinder mixer, the old man told him to park it and use the M instead - he didn't want any more hours on the "newer" tractor then it needed (using gas tractors in the middle of winter). Brother said OK but plan on it taking a lot longer. After arguing it out the old man agreed to time each load. Running ear corn through the grinder with two boys scooping and the old man supervising he found that the M wouldn't fill the grinder anywhere near the speed the 460 did (we got to scoop 4 loads that day in the name of science) if tried to feed the corn in at the same rate (variable speed loading arguer) as the 460 the M pulled down so much it would almost die. The next Saturday he repeated the test (400 bushel more ear corn ground) both timing the loads and measuring the fuel used. He learned that the 460 was not only more powerful - it burned about the same amount of fuel. The old man had bought that M from his dad with the farm in 1954(?) He traded it and an 826 a month later when he bought another 1466.


I never knew how little brand owners thought of Ms and 400/450s until I spent time with my wife's family. They were AC people through and through and the only thing that impressed them about an M was how much fuel they burned.
 
(quoted from post at 13:13:04 12/06/16) Yes I am ignoring it, because most Ms are lucky to be putting out stock hp, some where rebuilt to get more HP and you still had tractor with no live hydraulics and or IPTO. And if it was rebuilt 40 years ago it doesn't mean it still has that bump up in hp today. I can get 200 hp out of a 1586 without issue, but that doesn't make it a MX 215.

My 1940 M has the 4 inch, flat top pistons. It puts out 45 horsepower with no other modifications.
 
If an M is "lucky to be putting out stock HP" what makes you think a 460 is any more "lucky?"

Besides, this is about a 460 vs a 560. Nobody's suggesting buying an M. The OP already has an M.

The M is only used as a comparison to the 460. If the OP is expecting a 460 to work circles around his M based on the Nebraska Tests numbers, he will be sorely disappointed unless his M is really tired.
 
Perhaps you should read original post.




Its amazing how many people with first hand experience, International Harvester Corporation, and the Nebraska Tractor Test Laboratory are all wrong.
 
If your M really got that outpowered while running a grinder by a 460, I cant help but think there was something wrong with the M. Maybe it wasn't tuned right or something. OR maybe that was a distillate M, that I could see being the case.
 
The original poster will probably never ask a simple question on here again. M's got more horsepower, M's got less horsepower. Holy cow, a M is not an M anymore. Original 248 engine, lot of them with distillate heads and manifolds, and now most have 264 cubes, who knows what head, step head pistons or flat head, ignition with proper advance for the altered compression ratio's. Just not easy to try to compare them. A 460 gas is pretty much a 460 gas. A good share of them had a very poor governor which makes all the difference in the world when it comes to that engine getting with it before pulling down below rated engine speed. I worked on a lot of those governors. Several changes were made over the years. Some helped, most did little. Put on a decent carburetor made more difference than anything in their performance. I remember driving a new 460 home about 15 miles from the farmfest near Montevideo, Minn in 59 (I believe) and that thing would slow down for every little rise in the road and finally kick in. After we sold that one I did a lot of governor work for the customer and finally got a nice active one working. The 706 and 656 did have a good governor but part of that was attributed to the carburetor being somewhat reversed. Bowl pointed opposite way but throat was changed to have throttle lever still engine side.

When I would put a M on the dynamometer, it usually ended up with a governor rebuild to get it to be fully open at rated speed. The governor on a H or M and up to 450 wore out very rapidly and affected the performance greatly. That is why other companies made governor kits for them. Make a dog into a horse. I always went by and still do, mfg's and Nebraska ratings taking into consideration the engine conditons and variables. A worn out engine will develop near normal horsepower if operating on all cylinders with good governor, ignition and carburetion etc. Even a worn out diesel will still develop good horse power if pump, injection nozzles etc are up to snuff.

As far as original poster, a 560 is still a whole lot more tractor from clutch (excluding TA) on back. All 460's we sold did have the large axle so they never had enough umpph to break an axle, just the axle housing.
 
Give my opinion between a 460 and 560 in the first post. If your M is tired a 460 may give results like dhermesc experienced. Just using the M as a comparison they were tested in 1939 with 36 inch small rubber and cast iron pistons. By 52 they would have tested different. Before 4 inch pistons and sleeves became the normal overhaul parts IH offered a 3-7/8 aluminum P&S power improvement set with a few extra parts to give 4.5 more HP. By the late fifties and early sixties most overhauls used 4 inch fire crater or step head pistons. Most putting out at least the 460 test HP with more lugging torque. In tests a farmall 350 shows more HP than a M. But you put fire craters in both engines in good tune, then put a big pto load on. Same load a 350 will start slowing down and start dropping faster if load stays on. M will power through most times. Same way with draw bar pull. Sure a 460 can be tuned to give a little more power but put the load to most and the same results happen. Most power increases done on a 460 involve going to a 560 size engine or another repower engine.
Lastly top power numbers are corrected to sea level and 60 degrees F. As tested the 460 gasoline was 45.38 Max. DB. HP. and 49.47 Max. belt HP.
Like my first post a 460 has the same or near same wheel base as a 560, height and width. 460 just has a smaller engine, drivetrain, axles on some and smaller front wheel bearings if I remember correct.
 
(quoted from post at 16:42:06 12/08/16) Give my opinion between a 460 and 560 in the first post. If your M is tired a 460 may give results like dhermesc experienced. Just using the M as a comparison they were tested in 1939 with 36 inch small rubber and cast iron pistons. By 52 they would have tested different. Before 4 inch pistons and sleeves became the normal overhaul parts IH offered a 3-7/8 aluminum P&S power improvement set with a few extra parts to give 4.5 more HP. By the late fifties and early sixties most overhauls used 4 inch fire crater or step head pistons. Most putting out at least the 460 test HP with more lugging torque. In tests a farmall 350 shows more HP than a M. But you put fire craters in both engines in good tune, then put a big pto load on. Same load a 350 will start slowing down and start dropping faster if load stays on. M will power through most times. Same way with draw bar pull. Sure a 460 can be tuned to give a little more power but put the load to most and the same results happen. Most power increases done on a 460 involve going to a 560 size engine or another repower engine.
Lastly top power numbers are corrected to sea level and 60 degrees F. As tested the 460 gasoline was 45.38 Max. DB. HP. and 49.47 Max. belt HP.
Like my first post a 460 has the same or near same wheel base as a 560, height and width. 460 just has a smaller engine, drivetrain, axles on some and smaller front wheel bearings if I remember correct.

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All I can say about all this talk about 460 and 560 tractors is that I have owned a Farmall 460, a Farmall 560, Farmall 504, Farmall 656, and a Farmall 686. Of the whole gang which one would I pick? If I didn't have the money I would get a Farmall 656. The 656 is similar in power to the 560, but much easier to get on and off, much easier to operate, has 3 pt hitch, power steering, easy to shift PTO, etc. If I had the money I would get the king of the M type Farmalls and that is the 686. Similar to the 656 in many ways but with about 15 more HP and the D312 will last forever if taken care of. I still have the 656 and a 686 with a 2250 loader. Both are handy tractors and easy to operate
 
Thanks for everyone's input and experiences. Appears I came up with quite the topic! I'm still a bit uncertain still if a 460 would be too small or not.. I think it'd be a close call. I thin I'll plan to look for decent 560 or 656.

Thanks again everyone, i appreciate your input!
 

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