My Dad's 444 has problems...

My dad gas a GAS engine 444, I don't know the year or serial number.

I need to help him work on it this weekend. The loader hydraulics do not work, the power steering does not work, and he can't get it out of reverse.

The oil is very milky since he bought it ~10 years ago no matter how many times we change out the oil. I don't get it... No way it can be condensation continually building up, it's puzzling.

The transmission holds I believe 8 gallons of oil, but when we stick something in the fill plug to measure how much oil is in it, we only see about 1/4" on the end of the stick. He has no idea where all the trans fluid went. I have read that the FEL can steal oil from the trans housing to use for its operation, is this correct? I can't imagine it uses the 3 gallons from the 3pt lift...

The only thing that works is the 3 point lift.

I'm used to working on Fords, so will likely have a lot of questions in this thread that hopefully you guys can help me out with.

First question is, I am trying to identify exactly what tractor he has. It says 444 on the hood, but is has squared off fenders like a 2444. It's painted white/red and looks like it was never yellow.

It has what looks to be every HYD accessory known to man on the thing.

He has no manuals for it, so I don't even know how to fill the trans properly.

First thing I am going to do this weekend is try to drain out all the milky oil. Can I replace it with Traveler "Premium" HYD/Trans oil? I know it is supposed to take Hy-Tran oil, but at this stage I am not buying any expensive oil because it could take 30 gallons total to flush out all the milky stuff.

Back to the loader. Googling for pictures on the internet, the loader looks more like a Case 60 loader than anything I can find made by IH. Does that make sense?

Some have suggested it is a IH 2000 of 2050 loader, but none of those show up in the online parts manuals when I search by model. Again, the boom & sub frame look a lot like a CASE 60 FEL.

If anyone has any ideas on the continually milky oil, plz let me know.

I can comment on the milky oil. I have a 424 gas burner with no auxillary hydraulics . It has a reservoir for the 3 point lift but separate transmission fluid. I run Hy Tran in both. The transmission fluid is always milky no matter how often I change it . The tractor stays in the barn so I know it is not rainwater . It is caused by condensation and the fact that I do not use the tractor enough to keep condensation from building up. I no longer worry about the milky fluid due to the fact that the transmission operates fine and has done so for several years. I have read that Hy Tran handles moisture exceedingly well. Also, I cannot afford to replace the fluid that often anyway. As far as the hydraulics not working on your tractor there are any numbers of possibilities . Clogged filters, system drawing air from bad seal or improperly seated filter , trash in a valve, etc. etc. . Others will offer good advice but I doubt that the milky fluid is the culprit. As far as a manual or specs- You can type the model into a search engine and get all the information you need about type of fluids and amounts needed as well as much more information .Just my 2 cents.

also, WHEN MEASURING TRANSMISSION FLUID ON THE STICK THERE IS USUALLY A PROCEDURE FOR CHECKING IT. My 584 requires me to run the tractor at a certain R P M for 3 minutes and THEN check fluid level. Yours may be similar . Google until you find a manual which gives you a procedure as well as where to find the markings identifying your tractor model. They should be cast somewhere into frame or engine. Good luck.

You really need to get a manual to determine the capacities of the various oil reservoirs on the tractor. There are many places online that sell reprint manuals.

It really sounds like you don't have enough oil in the tractor for it to function. Usually there is a level check plug to determine the correct level of hydraulic oil somewhere on the side of the transmission housing. The manual would detail its location.

(quoted from post at 21:38:04 10/27/16)

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Post some pictures of the tractor so we can help you better.

(quoted from post at 21:38:04 10/27/16)
If anyone has any ideas on the continually milky oil, plz let me know.

Click to expand...

Does the tractor sit inside or outside. If inside, an "open shed" or closed doors and walls?

Ok, I stopped by my Dad's house after work today, so I have a bit more information.

According to the nameplate, the tractor is:

Model: 444
S/N: 046545

Can someone tell me what year it is?

He removed all the drain plugs from the bottom of the tractor and let it drain all day, in total, there is about 7 gallons, so that's about 4 gallons short from what it should have I think. However, the rear lift reservoir was full, so that means the transmission and rear end only had 4 gallons of oil in it when it's suppose to have 8. And I have read that the loader takes oil from the trans case, so I think that explains why the loader stopped working.

I looked at the loader more closely and I can see the original decals have been painted over, it is an IH 2000 loader.

My plan is to go over there Saturday and remove each cylinder and cycle by hand while holding them in a vise to get as much milky oil out as possible, drain whatever lines I can get off. My Dad told me he's not going to keep buying oil and flushing it, so I need to get as much out as possible because once we fill it again, that's all he can afford. He is buying the Tractor Supply Universal HYD/Trans oil, which I believe is 10w30. That's what he's been toping it off with for the whole time he's had it. What I don't understand is how he lost 4 gallons. There is no crazy leak anywhere that I have noticed over the years.

The tractor is in the barn all winter, and outside all summer.

I've read that a torn shift boot can be the culprit for allowing water to get in, but I don't see a boot, just a shield. And when I look in the online parts catalog I don't see a boot, just seal #307213R1.

I'm wondering if someone can point me to an online parts manual for the loader, I need the filter part number. When I go to the partstore on the Case/IH website and search for 2000, I don't get a loader. In fact, none of the older IH loaders come up from what I can see, but some older CASE loaders do come up.

So I think adding the new oil will solve the loader & power steering issues, but I doubt it will solve the stuck in reverse issue. I'll deal with that after I get the loader working I guess...

Hi, 444 S/Ns look on left on this page Research & Info then Serial Numbers. We had the older models B414D and 434 and newer
model 384 than your Dad's 444 all Diesels. Neighbour had 444 which was almost identical to our 384. They were all British built
units.
Your Dad's 444 will probably be a skid unit that was shipped from UK and assembled in Louisville, KY with many US parts.
Some differences of the skid units were Delco electrical system vs Lucas, hydrostatic power steering vs the power assist
steering with the hydraulic cylinder on the left side of tractor and single hydraulic pump with a splitter valve for PS vs two
hydraulic pumps stacked one behind the other. One pump for 3pt and one pump for PS. Also gasoline models would have C-153 vs BC-
144 engine.
On the British built units had 5 gal of 90 wt gear oil in the transmission and 3 gal of Hytran in the hydraulic housing.
I know the 2444 Industrial models had a modification that allow the transmission to use Hytran and be a combined transmission
and hydraulic reservoir. This allowed extra hydraulic reservoir capacity for FELs and backhoes.

For your Dad's 444 some questions:
1) Does it have Louisville on model plate?
2) Does it have 2 hydraulic pumps on front right of engine or just 1?
3) Does it have a PS cylinder on left side of tractor?
4) Is loader plumbed into high pressure line from hydraulic pump to hydraulic reservoir under the seat?

Some pictures of loader plumbing would be helpful.
JimB

2000 and 2001 loaders were made by the Great Bend Corp (GB). Make sure the filter is changed. Milky oil can also be a suction leak too.Good luck.

(quoted from post at 17:42:51 10/27/16) Hi, 444 S/Ns look on left on this page Research & Info then Serial Numbers. We had the older models B414D and 434 and newer
model 384 than your Dad's 444 all Diesels. Neighbour had 444 which was almost identical to our 384. They were all British built
units.
Your Dad's 444 will probably be a skid unit that was shipped from UK and assembled in Louisville, KY with many US parts.
Some differences of the skid units were Delco electrical system vs Lucas, hydrostatic power steering vs the power assist
steering with the hydraulic cylinder on the left side of tractor and single hydraulic pump with a splitter valve for PS vs two
hydraulic pumps stacked one behind the other. One pump for 3pt and one pump for PS. Also gasoline models would have C-153 vs BC-
144 engine.
On the British built units had 5 gal of 90 wt gear oil in the transmission and 3 gal of Hytran in the hydraulic housing.
I know the 2444 Industrial models had a modification that allow the transmission to use Hytran and be a combined transmission
and hydraulic reservoir. This allowed extra hydraulic reservoir capacity for FELs and backhoes.

For your Dad's 444 some questions:
1) Does it have Louisville on model plate?
2) Does it have 2 hydraulic pumps on front right of engine or just 1?
3) Does it have a PS cylinder on left side of tractor?
4) Is loader plumbed into high pressure line from hydraulic pump to hydraulic reservoir under the seat?

Some pictures of loader plumbing would be helpful.
JimB

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I believe I can answer your questions form memory, but will take pictures tomorrow.

"1) Does it have Louisville on model plate? - No, but I will take a picture."

"2) Does it have 2 hydraulic pumps on front right of engine or just 1?" - Has one pump on the right integrated into the timing gears, and then an add-on spline pump on the front of the engine crankshaft for the FEL.

"3) Does it have a PS cylinder on left side of tractor?" - no, it has 2 cylinders underneath the tractor.

"4) Is loader plumbed into high pressure line from hydraulic pump to hydraulic reservoir under the seat?" - Yes There is a plate under the seat with 2 metal tubes coming out of it, one of them feeds the add-on gear pump on the front of the engine crankshaft. There is a large HYD filter canister in-line with this supply just in front of the operators right foot.

OK, so it looks like I had the serial number wrong.

It is 04645, so I guess that makes it a 1968 tractor.

As requested, hare are some pictures of the 444, go to this album: http://imgur.com/a/nH7uh

Your Dad's 444 would appear to a Louisville assemble skid unit.
Sorry, never seen a loader hookup like your Dad's 444. It would appear that the front hydraulic pump uses the same hydraulic
reservoir as 3pt under the seat or does the suction line go into the trans/diff somehow?

Does the PS feed off a splitter valve from the high pressure line from the pump at the front right of engine?
JimB

(quoted from post at 18:38:56 10/28/16) Your Dad's 444 would appear to a Louisville assemble skid unit.
Sorry, never seen a loader hookup like your Dad's 444. It would appear that the front hydraulic pump uses the same hydraulic
reservoir as 3pt under the seat or does the suction line go into the trans/diff somehow?

Does the PS feed off a splitter valve from the high pressure line from the pump at the front right of engine?
JimB

Click to expand...

I will be working on it with him tomorrow.

From what I can tell, the power steering splits off from the pump on the front of the engine. But the front engine pump and the aux pump for the loader are fed by the 3 gallon reservoir under the seat. I see no HYD lines going into the trans.

Problem is, ALL the oil in both the trans and HYD reservoir are milky, like it's getting mixed somewhere.

I have not traced every HYD line yet, so I am still confused.

Ok, so I worked on the IH 444 all day, took the lines off all of the cylinders, push/pulled the rams to get as much of the milky oil out as possible.

Removed the small HYD system filter and will replace that with new O-ring.

I took off all the hose and steel tubing that supplies the loader with oil. I can confirm that the loader gets its oil from the 3 gal reservoir only. But yet the trans housing was full of milky oil as well, so somehow it's mixing?

I will replace all short pieces of hyd hose that connects to the lines with hose clamps, because they all look old and stiff, and they my be causing a suction leak.

I also noticed, the T fitting under the seat is supposed to have a JIC 37 deg female plug on it, not sure what that port is used for, but it looks like someone a long time ago made their own plug out of a fitting, nasty weld all over it, this could be another area where a suction leak could occur.

The main issue I am having is, I think the filter in the loader filter housing is wrong, or there is supposed to be a spring between the cap and the filter. The filter is short enough that it can fall off the tube on the inside of the housing, and the oil could just bypass the filter. When the filter is pushed back in the housing all the way it is 4 inches away from the cap, the filter seems way too short.

Please see the following pictures of the filter issue: http://imgur.com/a/z1qq0

As you can see, the loader was originally painted yellow, this tells me it is a loader off of an IH 2444 industrial tractor maybe?

I really need someone with a Great Bend Corp model 2000 loader to tell me what filter I am supposed to be using, and if there is supposed to be a spring between the cap and the filter to make sure the filter stays seated.

I have read that Great Bend corp was bought out by Bush Hog, and of course all that older stuff is discontinued. I really need to get ahold of an old parts manual for this loader. Or someone here who knows what filter I should be using.