Well? I read somewhere that IH's logic, at first anyway, for the Gas start diesels was an engine that could be crank started. Well, I've hand crank started C's and M's and an F20 no problem, but my 450D I can only barely roll over. Which leads me to think how hard it must have been on the older ones like a WD40, etc, that were only hand crank. Is it common for the diesel tractor to be harder to hand crank, am I just a wimp, or were the old farmers downright huge? Farmers (me included) are the strongest people on average that I personally know, so were the old farmers Really, Really strong? Or was some of the old equipment easier to start than I think? Or is it a diesel thing? -Andy
- Thread starter FC Andy
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kris Jensen
Member
maybe a bit harder. IHC used a gas carb and manifold with compression release
to start the tractors as you would any of their models. Then when it got running and a bit
warmed up you switched it over to diesel
to start the tractors as you would any of their models. Then when it got running and a bit
warmed up you switched it over to diesel
TractormanNC
Member
Never tried to hand crank a gas start diesel but several things come to mind.
More and heavier parts turning, injection pump and a heavier crank, Five main bearings instead of three.
On your 450 probably a TA, independent PTO driveline and planetaries, live hydraulic pump on the engine.
Each one may not be much but it all adds up. HTH
More and heavier parts turning, injection pump and a heavier crank, Five main bearings instead of three.
On your 450 probably a TA, independent PTO driveline and planetaries, live hydraulic pump on the engine.
Each one may not be much but it all adds up. HTH
jim warehime
Member
I crank start my md's all the time. I have never had a problem with them being hard to turn over, biggest thing I found is keeping the cranking mechanism in the front bolster lubricated.
rustred
Well-known Member
well first of all these old crank tractors had magnetos and with a magneto you do not have to spin the engine over. i have started many old tractors with a crank. the easiest to start is my W-12, the hardest is my WD40. all the WD40 takes is a couple pulls on the primer and choke on and she will fire on the second pull. got to remember you are pulling many cubic inches of compression here. 475 i believe it is. but the w-12 will start with no effort at all. once it is started and stopped, i can pull ever so slow on the crank and once the mag trips she is running on first click.
started wd9 many times also and its not too bad to start.
A Diesel just has so much more compression is one reason it would be so difficult to hand crank WELL DUH plus you need a fairly fast piston rise (fast cranking) to raise the temperature sufficient for diesel combustion. That's why they used methods like easy to start gasoline engine pony motors which then were used to start the hard to crank diesels. The early IHC had the same engine (NOT a separate pony starting motor) that started on gas and once warmed up it switched over to diesel while JD used the gas pony motor to crank the diesel. It would take a pretty good man to go out on a zero day and hand crank a high compression 4 cylinder diesel fast enough to start now lol
John T
John T
caterpillar guy
Well-known Member
You guys make me feel wimpy now. I have never been able to turn over our MD with a crank. Not even enough to make one revolution. It never started like you guys describe either. It always had to turn over several times and fairly fast to start on gas. It would always start down in the below zero temps though. Always smoked a lot on gas till it cleared out then would smoke when changed over to diesel also.
But John most of the older IH diesels started on gas then you switch them over to diesel. I had a TD-6 that was that way and the MD is also that way as many other Ih ones where. So the high compression logic here does not apply since when in gas mode they where low compression gas engines
Janicholson
Well-known Member
Yup old and others are correct the compression on the start cycle is maybe 5 to 1. really low. Mine was started in freezing temps with the crank and coil ignition. It didn't matter how fast it was turned, it took 3 pulls and off it went. Jim
I don't think so we have an h and a 300 both with distributer ignition and I have a hard time crank starting them, and when we got the wd9 with mag ing. a few years ago I stuck the crank in just playing around and had it running on the second pull and it pulled over easier, my theory is the ing. timing is set for easy starting on the diesels and not pulling like the gassers so they start easier, and when in gas mode the compression probably isn't any higher than it gas counterpart again because it not designed to pull that way.
gtractorfan
Well-known Member
What you need is a hill like a bank barn where you can park it at the top and let 'er get rolling then let out the clutch.
But Old, didn't you read my post where I said
"The early IHC had the same engine (NOT a separate pony starting motor) that started on gas and once warmed up it switched over to diesel" I was a used tractor dealer for years and bought and sold a ton of those old tractors for a living.
But Old, didn't you read where I posted
"A Diesel just has so much more compression is one reason it would be so difficult to hand crank" .... " That's why they used methods like easy to start gasoline engine pony motors which then were used to start the hard to crank diesels"
PS NOTE early John Deere diesels used a gasoline pony starting motor which then cranked the diesel engine
Looks like my high compression logic DOES APPLY since high compression makes it difficult to hand crank a diesel THEREFORE they used a low compression easier to crank GAS ENGINE method of starting.
Take care Rich, best wishes
John T
"The early IHC had the same engine (NOT a separate pony starting motor) that started on gas and once warmed up it switched over to diesel" I was a used tractor dealer for years and bought and sold a ton of those old tractors for a living.
But Old, didn't you read where I posted
"A Diesel just has so much more compression is one reason it would be so difficult to hand crank" .... " That's why they used methods like easy to start gasoline engine pony motors which then were used to start the hard to crank diesels"
PS NOTE early John Deere diesels used a gasoline pony starting motor which then cranked the diesel engine
Looks like my high compression logic DOES APPLY since high compression makes it difficult to hand crank a diesel THEREFORE they used a low compression easier to crank GAS ENGINE method of starting.
Take care Rich, best wishes
John T
John M
Well-known Member
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All the more reason to keep the electrical system up to snuff. We had a couple of IH gas start diesels, but I cant only recall one time Dad trying to hand crank it, because some kid left the lights on, wont say who. anyways, I remember it starting fairly easily on gas that one time.
But IH did not use a pony motor it used a compression release sort of thing and the diesel and gas part where both the same same engine NOT a pony engine like Cat used. I too have done tons of stuff with the old IH gas/diesel engines and still have a number of the manuals but as I said no pony on the IH TD-6 etc
Congratulations Rich, YOU HAVE IT CORRECT AND AGREE WITH MY POST WHERE I STATED.........and I quote:
"The early IHC had the same engine (NOT a separate pony starting motor) that started on gas and once warmed up it switched over to diesel while JD used the gas pony motor to crank the diesel.”
Unless the darn computer is messing up lol THATS AN EXACT COPY OF WHAT I POSTED ABOVE
You must have confused what I said about how IHC started versus the JD (read my post again)
Thanks Rich, post back any questions and I will try to help
John T
"The early IHC had the same engine (NOT a separate pony starting motor) that started on gas and once warmed up it switched over to diesel while JD used the gas pony motor to crank the diesel.”
Unless the darn computer is messing up lol THATS AN EXACT COPY OF WHAT I POSTED ABOVE
You must have confused what I said about how IHC started versus the JD (read my post again)
Thanks Rich, post back any questions and I will try to help
John T
For sure, for years when I was a tractor dealer when those IHC diesels that started on gas then switched over to diesel (NOT a separate pony engine like John Deere used) came across the auction block (and believe me I saw hundreds over the years) THE SILENCE AND NON BIDDING WAS IN FULL FORCE LOL
They were NOT popular among us tractors dealers who had to try and convince a buyer how great they were lol
John Deere used a separate gasoline pony motor to crank the diesel and those were in fairly good demand and not as hard to resell as the IHC diesels that started on gas then switched over.
Good chattin with ya
John T
They were NOT popular among us tractors dealers who had to try and convince a buyer how great they were lol
John Deere used a separate gasoline pony motor to crank the diesel and those were in fairly good demand and not as hard to resell as the IHC diesels that started on gas then switched over.
Good chattin with ya
John T
Janicholson
Well-known Member
All of the engine was designed around the system and the block design was only shared in the 9 series as a gasoline only engine. It had different heads and much lower compression. Jim
Owen Aaland
Well-known Member
Not quite sure what you mean here. The 9 series gas engine was the same design as the 4 (H) and 6 (M) series tractors. The gas and diesel engines are designed differently and share very few parts.
There is a larger four cylinder diesel than the 9 series (used in the TD14) and I think they also made a gasoline version of the same size. There were also six cylinder versions of the engine.
Janicholson
Well-known Member
The MD and larger gas start diesels (at least to TD 20) were similar in design. The larger ones are 6 cylinder with split heads (2 groups of 3) My brother owns an I9, its engine seems to be very similar in many ways including distributor rotation( to the Diesel) Just thinking out loud, Jim
Ethan Chamberlain
Member
If the decompression lever,rods,and valves are all working then the IH gas start diesels are not any harder then a straight gas tractor to hand crank. I have seen a few of the pieces that are under the valve cover that open the valves break in the past. When that happens, you can no longer decompress the motor enough to hand crank it to life. I know for sure that I've had two tractors in the past that had the little cam arm welded back on that pushes the valves down. Once fixed they are startable again. Ran a few WD9's for a long time, had a super MDTA diesel as the main loader tractor around for a long time as well. They all started good. Hand cranked most of the nines, but never had to on the mta
When you pull the decompression lever on the gas-start diesels, you drop back to ~5:1 compression. Assuming you have a good mag, at that point an MD should be no harder to start than an M. As stated earlier in the thread, the later models could have a LOT more mass and accessories to turn to get it started.
AlanA
INDEED now a 5/1 compression ratio gas powered engine CAN BE HAND CRANKED versus a high compression diesel which would crank soooooooo hardddddddd as I noted above as a reason why a diesel would be difficult to hand crank. That IHC that doesn't use a separate gas pony motor like the early John Deere two banger diesels has at least that advantage (same engine that started on gas then switched to diesel), but as I posted they were NOT popular with us used tractor dealers, we couldn't get rid of them when we got them home grrrrrrrrrrr.
John T
John T
Andy Martin
Well-known Member
Yes the gas start diesels are timed late on gas ignition. My TD-14A would not even lift the blade on gas.
And another note on timing: As far as I know, ALL of the gas start diesels were magneto ignition. I don't know if they were ever offered with battery ignition. I will not even attempt to crank start a battery ignition, or a magneto I have not verified the timing on. I've seen too many vacuum advance systems that were worn to the point they did not return to minimum advance, especially if they were set with a timing light under heavy load.
Trying to crank an engine with any advance before TDC is just asking to get kicked. And with hand cranking, it is not about speed or strenght, it is about technique.
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