Farmall 656 - Engine rebuild vs New engine

I have a 656 regular gas that got an engine knock, found shavings in the pan, etc. Needless to say, the options are a rebuild or a new motor. I personally don't know how to do either, so I'd be hiring someone to help. What would you guys suggest is a better option? It seems like dropping a new engine in would be easier but I'm not having any luck finding an engine, let alone even another 656 locally. Thanks for any advice.
 
Dont go jumping to any conclusions yet.....Drop the pan and look.Remove some bearing caps. Could be a simple rod bearing(or
worse of coarse).Unless it is really serious,I would overhaul it.An inframe isnt too expencive or hard.Let us know what you
find.
 
(quoted from post at 08:15:29 08/31/16) Dont go jumping to any conclusions yet.....Drop the pan and look.Remove some bearing caps. Could be a simple rod bearing(or
worse of coarse).Unless it is really serious,I would overhaul it.An inframe isnt too expencive or hard.Let us know what you
find.
Well we found shavings. I'm no expert at all but my neighbor's an older guy that has a ton of experience and seems to think the crank shaft would need removal. Do you suggest just splitting it and taking a look? The other downside is I don't have a compressor with air tools or anything so it's quite an undertaking at the moment.
 
I would recommend tearing into your old motor to know what has happened. Get an estimate as to rebuilding it and then compare to something ready to bolt in from a recon supplier. Rebuilding yours allows oversight as to what goes in versus buying from a recon supplier where the components may be no more than adequate.
 
if it is a rod that turned... then u need a major overhaul. crank removed and turned or replaced. rod brgs. need resizing. its basically a complete engine rebuild thats in order. wont be cheap either. engine must come out of tractor, no other way as crankshaft must come out any time a brg turns. its not simple as any turned brg. means the engine is toast.u cannot just replace the rod brg. and call it good. that is what tractor jocky's do , as i have seen it done. then the customer is stuck with a cat in the bag. be a lot cheaper to find another used engine for the tractor. as the rebuild will cost what the tractor is worth. i'm sure there is a lot of those engines around. i have also heard of people putting combine engines in . but have not experienced it.
 
(quoted from post at 08:31:06 08/31/16) if it is a rod that turned... then u need a major overhaul. crank removed and turned or replaced. rod brgs. need resizing. its basically a complete engine rebuild thats in order. wont be cheap either. engine must come out of tractor, no other way as crankshaft must come out any time a brg turns. its not simple as any turned brg. means the engine is toast.u cannot just replace the rod brg. and call it good. that is what tractor jocky's do , as i have seen it done. then the customer is stuck with a cat in the bag. be a lot cheaper to find another used engine for the tractor. as the rebuild will cost what the tractor is worth. i'm sure there is a lot of those engines around. i have also heard of people putting combine engines in . but have not experienced it.
here does one search for engines?
 
As far as rebuilt short blocks goes there is Abilene Machine Co and Anderson Tractor in Bluffton, OH. As far as a takeout from a salvage yard goes the yard does not inspect the internal parts before they ship it to you. You have no guarantee beyond any stated guarantee by the yard as to the longevity of the engine you buy. You can get a bad motor from a well respected yard because all they can do is run for a short time while not under load in a salvage tractor. If the cooling system has already been pulled that test may only last for maybe a minute to listen for hard knocks. I would still spend the money to pull the cylinder head and pan on yours to know what you have. A spun rod bearing is not necessarily the end of that engine as another crankshaft could be sourced to replace the bad one. Pull yours apart and inspect the internals.
 
(quoted from post at 09:12:27 08/31/16) As far as rebuilt short blocks goes there is Abilene Machine Co and Anderson Tractor in Bluffton, OH. As far as a takeout from a salvage yard goes the yard does not inspect the internal parts before they ship it to you. You have no guarantee beyond any stated guarantee by the yard as to the longevity of the engine you buy. You can get a bad motor from a well respected yard because all they can do is run for a short time while not under load in a salvage tractor. If the cooling system has already been pulled that test may only last for maybe a minute to listen for hard knocks. I would still spend the money to pull the cylinder head and pan on yours to know what you have. A spun rod bearing is not necessarily the end of that engine as another crankshaft could be sourced to replace the bad one. Pull yours apart and inspect the internals.
s there any tutorials or guides that would show me how to inspect everything? I'm guessing it's gotta get split to do that right?
 
give jasper engines a call in jasper indiana. they are a very large engine rebuilding service. they may have one already done for you, or they will rebuild yours for you. heres a link
jasper engines
 
Find an I & T shop manual for a 656 online or at a store such as Tractor Supply. They are not very in depth but should allow you to figure out how to remove the head and oil pan along with splitting the tractor. Removing the cylinder head and oil pan can be done without a split.
 
(quoted from post at 09:34:14 08/31/16) Find an I & T shop manual for a 656 online or at a store such as Tractor Supply. They are not very in depth but should allow you to figure out how to remove the head and oil pan along with splitting the tractor. Removing the cylinder head and oil pan can be done without a split.
he oil pan is removed, we found shavings in it but I'm not sure what else was seen, I don't know enough in terms of what to look for.
 
I have a parts 2656 (industrial 656) with an excellent D282 engine if you consider converting to diesel. Would sell you complete engine cheaper than a rebuild.
 
A lot of people find shavings in the oil drainings so I was not going to assume that you actually removed the pan. I would pull the rod bearing caps and the main caps but not on either end as they are supporting the crankshaft. Care needs to be given as to noting alignment and positioning of removed caps so if the motor is reassembled that the caps go back with "their mates" as that will affect seating of the caps. Make notations on the caps via paint stick or some other marking tool. Make sure the surfaces are free of oil residue. Make notations of any scratch marks or excessive rubbing on the bearing surfaces internally or externally. Measurement of the wear can be done but maybe you need to bring somebody in with experience to do that.
 
the engine need to be disassembled before any estimates can be made on the parts. you need a qualified person for that who knows what is required. never know what a person finds once disassembled... may have worn timing gears or camshaft ... just dont know by staring at it in the tractor. then a decision made. according to parts cost. then u would have labour in there also i would think. when looking at used do a compression test and read the spark plugs, look at the oil. that gives a good indication of its condition. i would not just pull an engine from a shelf and install it without an inspection. run it if possible. its your money and tractor so this is just advise.
needed- gaskets.
crank and rod brgs.
rods resized
main brgs.
cam brgs.
camshaft checked.
block soaking and inspection.
possible line bore
rings.
posssible sleeves.
lifters.
check gears.
head rebuild
rocker assembly checked for wear.
distributer checked.
carb overhaul.
tune up.
so if all this needs to be done u have a worn out engine. a factory rebuilt would be the cheapest way to go with warranty. if your after new. its like spend 3-5000.00 on engine , or get used for 1000.00 or less. hiring a rebuilt out , the labour will kill you. unless you have it done your self or good cheap knowledgeable help.
or just patch that one up with a crank , a rod , and brgs, rings, gaskets. no head work. you will still have over 1000.00 in it.
only the guy doing the hands on work can give you the closest estimate for that engine. this is advise. you have 3 choices. factory rebuild, patch that one, or get good used one depending on this ones condition.
 
Just to be clear here, there is no such thing as a "new" engine, unless you convert the tractor over to some non-original engine type.

When replacing like-for-like, you are looking at a "remanufactured" engine, a "reman." You will need to return your old engine as a "core" or pay several hundred dollars extra to keep your old engine. These engine remanufacturing companies use your old engine as a basis for the next remanufactured engine.

If you don't know what to look for or what you're looking at, it might be best to leave the process to a professional, even though it will definitely cost more. That is not something you can adequately teach in the format of an online forum. At the very least find yourself a mentor who is willing to work with you every step of the way, and show you what to look for in person.
 
(quoted from post at 10:35:27 08/31/16) Just to be clear here, there is no such thing as a "new" engine, unless you convert the tractor over to some non-original engine type.

When replacing like-for-like, you are looking at a "remanufactured" engine, a "reman." You will need to return your old engine as a "core" or pay several hundred dollars extra to keep your old engine. These engine remanufacturing companies use your old engine as a basis for the next remanufactured engine.

If you don't know what to look for or what you're looking at, it might be best to leave the process to a professional, even though it will definitely cost more. That is not something you can adequately teach in the format of an online forum. At the very least find yourself a mentor who is willing to work with you every step of the way, and show you what to look for in person.
've got a few mentors in person, but I don't know if I should aim for rebuilding the engine with a new crank and a rebuild kit or if I should try to just find a reman'd engine like you say and swap it.
 
If you rebuild your own you have some control over the parts used in the process. Some remans will not tell how far the crankshaft has been ground or if a "minor" weld was performed or known about.
 
did u read my post? then u make your decision, after parts and labour are estimated after the tear down. u need a mechanical advisor.
 
(quoted from post at 16:22:15 08/31/16) did u read my post? then u make your decision, after parts and labour are estimated after the tear down. u need a mechanical advisor.
did read it and I agree, I figured that would be the case. I was told by one of the local new holland dealers that does repairs that it wouldn't even be worth it to hire them for it, and I agree labor would probably kill me to hire someone independent but I do need another tractor. One of the major setbacks for me is not having a proper shop or tools to easily split the tractor and open everything up to look at it, even with my advisor here. I do have the room for it, but I only have manual tools which I imagine would make everything move at a snails pace on top of all of the other things I have to do on the farm each day.
 
Why do you think it needs a new crank you will not know until enine is torn apart all you mite ned is a valvejob on the head and hone the walls and new rings but intil you take engine apart its pure guess work
 
(quoted from post at 18:15:46 08/31/16) Why do you think it needs a new crank you will not know until enine is torn apart all you mite ned is a valvejob on the head and hone the walls and new rings but intil you take engine apart its pure guess work
was under the impression the shavings were indicative of a serious problem. What are the shavings from when there's a loose rod? There was a knocking so I'm assuming that's a loose rod, right? I really am not very mechanically inclined and only know basics, nothing about engines. My neighbor is very inclined and seemed to think there was a need for a new crank shaft after dropping the pan but I don't know what his reasoning is
 
the "filing's," not "shaving's" as that is wood. they are from the old rod brg that was beat to death from the excessive clearance or even lack of oil. and once this happens the rod is beat out of round.. so it is junk.. no question about it. just garbage can material. the crankshaft journal is toast also. the nice smooth finish on it is gone. so it needs to be reground. once the pan is dropped any mechanic can pick out the loose rod by looking at it or even moving it. you will definitly have excessive rod clearance with a spun brg. a new rod clearance is like .0015 and when the oil pressure biulds up the crank is running on that film of oil. if you loose oil pressure the crank is running on the rod brg , a no no! and gets heated up and tears the brg. out. metal to metal contact not good. that is why your engine takes the most wear on cold startups. till finally the clearances get to much and poor oil pressure and things just keep adding up.then you get the big knock knock knock. so this is a bit of reasoning for you, so you have a basic idea what is going on.
 
A dealership will not be economical as most charge in the neighborhood of 100 dollars per hour. You need to find the guy that is one step up from being a shade tree mechanic and charges under 50 dollars per hour.
 
Could you call your neighbor back and ask him why he thought it needed a new crankshaft? Maybe he saw something that he didn't point out to you.

Crawl under there and give each connecting rod a shake. You shouldn't get much if any movement out of them. If one of them flops around a lot, you've found what your neighbor found.

Yes, a machinery dealer will charge you much more than the tractor is worth to fix it. What you need to find is an independent mechanic who fixes tractors out of his own shop. Often this is a retired/displaced mechanic from a local machinery dealer. They tend to work for a lower hourly rate becaueMaybe go back to the dealer you asked and see if they know of anyone?
 
(quoted from post at 08:15:54 09/01/16) Could you call your neighbor back and ask him why he thought it needed a new crankshaft? Maybe he saw something that he didn't point out to you.

Crawl under there and give each connecting rod a shake. You shouldn't get much if any movement out of them. If one of them flops around a lot, you've found what your neighbor found.

Yes, a machinery dealer will charge you much more than the tractor is worth to fix it. What you need to find is an independent mechanic who fixes tractors out of his own shop. Often this is a retired/displaced mechanic from a local machinery dealer. They tend to work for a lower hourly rate becaueMaybe go back to the dealer you asked and see if they know of anyone?
see him often and I'll be seeing him later this week if not sooner so I'll ask him, but I do vaguely remember him saying there was a loose rod.

I've got at least one possible mechanic that can do it, but I have no idea how competent they are. I think if I had a shop and the right tools we could probably do it with my neighbors help but without the convenience of it it would be too time consuming.
 

I'm no expert but i think the knock and metal shavings don't give enough clues as to what's going on to make a determination. The motor needs to be tore down further to see what's happening. This you can do with hand tools ; end wrenches and ratchet/sockets will do.
Be sure and mark everything so it goes back like you found it.
If it is a spun rod bearing the crankshaft may be machined if not to badly worn and you can go back with oversize bearings. If a main bearing spun you have much bigger problems and will need a new block. I've seen car motors have a knock from worn bearings but the bearing didn't spin.

Good luck and report back.
another rookie.
 

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