BN, anti-freeze in oil but I don't see why

kopeck

Member
Trying to track down the water in my oil pan. I had the same problem 6 or so years ago, replaced the head gasket and it seemed to fix it until about 2 years ago when it started steaming out the breather and the coolant was back in the oil.

I pulled the pan to see if I could see anything weeping around the sleeve, I gave it 3 or 4 days and I can’t see anything. I tried to put a little pressure on the system, I couldn’t get things to seal real well but it didn’t help flush anything out.

I just pulled the head, other then a puddle of of oil and antifreeze on the deck by cylinder #4 (which I don’t know if happed when I pulled the head or if was there all along). Visually the deck looks great, the same with the head.

Not sure what I should do. Replace the O-Rings just in case of slap a new head gasket in and see what happens. Any other ideas?

K
 
Sounds like it might be a bad seal around one of the cylinder sleeves. The only fix is to pull the sleeves and replace the seals or in other words rebuild the engine.
 
When you pulled the pan you could not see any coolant at the base of the sleeve correct. So there must be a head gasket problem or even the head or block problem usually the head gasket will show where coolant leaks next to an oil passage. I use hi-temp aluminum paint for sealer on the gasket several lite coats has worked well for many yrs.
 
(quoted from post at 02:02:54 05/24/16) When you pulled the pan you could not see any coolant at the base of the sleeve correct. So there must be a head gasket problem or even the head or block problem usually the head gasket will show where coolant leaks next to an oil passage. I use hi-temp aluminum paint for sealer on the gasket several lite coats has worked well for many yrs.

Yup. and I even gave it 3 or more days and I couldn't see drips developed.

Am I better off leaving well enough alone on the sleeves (ie if it's not broke don't fix it)?

Something else I found that was interesting was the sleeves in the engine sit flat with the deck or at least very close. Most of the C113s I've been in the sleeve sit a little proud of the deck.

K
 
Years ago I ran into an engine that the sleeves did not stick up a bit and in turn found that to be a problem. Latter found out some one had the block shaved but did not pull the sleeves so the only way to fix that problem was to replace the sleeves.
 
(quoted from post at 08:57:12 05/24/16) Years ago I ran into an engine that the sleeves did not stick up a bit and in turn found that to be a problem. Latter found out some one had the block shaved but did not pull the sleeves so the only way to fix that problem was to replace the sleeves.

That's interesting.

This tractor has been on the same farm all of it's life and I don't remember the engine ever being out of it BUT I've only been around for 35 of it's 71 years. I do know that there's quite a few used head gaskets hanging out in shop (my grandfather never threw anything away) so it might have been an ongoing problem. The only issue there is he had an A, BN and a 200 so who knows which one they came out of.

I'm wondering if this is the root of the problem. I know on the engine that I'm rebuilding for my A the new sleeves sit about .005 higher then the deck (that from memory, I could be wrong on the number BUT the hight difference it quite noticeable).

The other thing I noticed is how clean the engine is inside. Very little sludge compared to the other C113s I've had apart.

Hmmmm.

K
 
You need to do a cylinder pressure test. Old spark plug. Weld a air male coupler to it and get piston to exactly top dead center compression stroke.. Apply air pressure which is best done with a regulated adjustable supply but not absolutely necessary. Look in radiator for air bubbles. This will tell you right quick if leak from head gasket fire ring around cylinder. Won't tell you if head gasket is leaking from other coolant passages but you will know if sleeve flange height is a problem.
 
(quoted from post at 10:47:44 05/24/16) You need to do a cylinder pressure test. Old spark plug. Weld a air male coupler to it and get piston to exactly top dead center compression stroke.. Apply air pressure which is best done with a regulated adjustable supply but not absolutely necessary. Look in radiator for air bubbles. This will tell you right quick if leak from head gasket fire ring around cylinder. Won't tell you if head gasket is leaking from other coolant passages but you will know if sleeve flange height is a problem.

The extension on my compression tester has a 1/4 quick connect! I wish I had thought of this last night before I pulled the head off. Great idea, thanks!

At this point I think I'll clean everything up, install a new head gasket and see where it goes. I have some of the copper spray stuff for head gaskets I'll try this time around.

Truth be told this engine needs an overhaul. It leaks pretty badly from the front main and I can see the rear main is leaking too. It soots up plugs and the oil pressure isn't anything to write home about. It always starts though and runs pretty darn good. I just want to get it to the point were it can move under it's on power and uses it for light cart pulling duty. Pushing it around is getting old.

K
 
Bad/old sleeve o-rings can also make the sleeves sit a bit low and cause odd problems. Plus hot coolant tends to leak but cold does not due to the engine heating up causes every thing to expand a bit so an o-ring leak can show up when warm but not when cold
 
I got home and checked and the sleeves are about .0035 (.003 pass easily and .004 doesn't) above the deck. So there is some protrusion (I think that's the right word) there even if by touch it doesn't seem to be.

The brand new sleeves in my A are .005 above the deck.

I've got everything torn down, I'm wondering if I should just order a set of O-Rings and be done with it.

I also have a set of ring sitting on the shelf...ugh project creep!

K
 
I just ordered some O-Rings.

Was thinking about slapping in some rings I had but really the whole engine needs a rebuild.

Fix the leak, use it lightly and then tear into it down the road. At least I hope this is going to fix the problem!

K
 
first off, what ft/lbs are you torquing the head to? IH changed the torque spec from 65 ft lbs to 85 ft lbs. also, if you have no weeping from around the base of the sleeves, I would be surprised if you have a o-ring issue.
 
Its not leaking there he is getting oil in the water and thats not a combustion leak. Its been my excperience the oil gets into the coolant towards the rear of the block.
 

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