580SE netural solenoid

my 580SE case backhoe has a broken wire where it exits the housing on the netural solenoid. i'd like to take the solenoid apart and try to repair it. looking at the solenoid case there appears to be 3 pins holding it together. i tapped on them with a pin punch, but they don't seem to move. should i try drilling them out? has anyone had one of these apart before? thanks for the help
 
There were a few different solenoids some had hexagon heads others had shear bolts,if you have the latter drill a small hole down the centre and use an easy out,if that fails drill them out,that switch is over $200 after-market,have you tried cutting away the rubber grommet,use a something sharp like a hobby knife and you may be able to expose enough wire to solder it together.
AJ
 
hello aj solenoid has hex head. the wire broke flush where it exits the case. i'm going to try drilling the 3 pins out as i have nothing to loose at this point. on another note, my shop manual shows magnetic solenoid in the starting circuit. i can't find it anywhere, but have found 2 small relays that are not shown on electrial schematic. have you ran across that before? thanks aj. mike
 
There are two types,one with and one without,be weary of the wiring on those machines,if you look under the dash it is like a bundle of straw,are you having trouble with the start circuit if not leave it alone.
AJ
 
i was using it to help with the carry frame on the td7, and it just wouldn't start all of a sudden. i jumpered the starter to finish the job. best i can figure i am not getting a ground on the ground terminal on starter switch. have ordered new netural start switch. ign switch appears to work correct when i tested it. the 2 relays just kinda buzz a little when i try to start it. the grounds on machine have all been taken apart and cleaned. as dozer has same starter, i tried it on backhoe. same results. you're right about the wiring under dash. i think factory could have done a better job laying it out. mike
 
You are going to have to go through the starting step by step,you need a volt meter,make sure all the ground cables are secure and the battery box is tight to the main frame,if you did not find a magnetic switch then you have the other type that does not have it,the starting circuit for that type is power is taken from the main battery cable on the starter to a circuit breaker and on to the ignition switch and the starter relay,another wire goes from the relay to the starter solenoid exciting side,a lighter wire goes from the relay to the ignition switch start terminal,the ground for the relay goes through the neutral start switch,when in neutral the switch is closed,turn the key,power is sent to the relay and it closes,the starter turns over,there will be no power at the neutral start switch as it only carries the ground.
AJ
 
the schematic in service manual calls out a 40 amp breaker. it's not in the stack with the others, and i can't find it anywhere. the largest circuit breaker in the stack is a 20 amp, and my meter shows they all have power on both sides. seem pretty complicated way to wire the machine in my opinion, but they must have their reasons. i'm hoping the netural start switch does it. if not, i'll jump the starter until i have more time. figures, works great until i get a job that pays haha. thanks for the help aj. i'll keep you posted. mike
 
The 40amp breaker that protects the feed up to the dash is in the engine bay to the front of the starter motor behind the alternator.should be two of them there,connect the two wires of the neutral start switch together to test it,the neutral start switch can be sensitive to the amount it is screwed in,sometime a washer on it gets a few more years out of it,be careful working on the starting circuit,you don't want the machine jumping into life with you lying under it,good luck.
AJ
 
aj


did case put those breakers anywhere else on a 580SE? i still can't find them. i've followed the wiring from battery to starter 3 times, and think i have looked everywhere else. even pulled floorboards out looking for them. thanks aj
 
aj i'm closing in on it. have a ground on both sides of safety switch with wires connected. 12 volts at key in acc, on, and ign posts. don't have a ground on switch ground post, but there is a seperate wire with a ground that goes between switch and dash. if i understand you, the ign wire should go to relays, close the relays and then power to starter exciter post? have you ever had an issue with the large wire loom connection uo under the floor board behind the starter?
 
Yes there are multi-plug under floor,give each one a good squeeze,if your dash lights are coming on more than likely the loom is ok.check where it passes over the bellhousing from left to right,that area had a habit of chafing if the engine mountings were shot for a while.if you found the starter relay you will see at has four wires,there should be one live wire there at all time,the opposite terminal goes to excite the starter solenoid,the two lighter wires,one is ground for the relay through the neutral start switch,the other is power from the ignition switch when you hit start,the relay will close and connect the two heavier wires together sending power to the starter.
AJ
 
aj do you mind if we talk about this again? when i told you the ign switch tested ok, i hooked it to a battery to test. had 12 volts in all positions. when i install the switch into the machine and hook the wiring connector to it, i have 12 just on battery post of switch. no power to on, acc, or ign posts when key is turned.i did find the batt wire connector in wiring plug had backed a little. i hpoefuuly have it secured now. i have pulled the starter / alt loom out of machine back to multi plug near dash. there is no 40 amp curcuit breaker attched to it. there is not one under the dash that i can find, although the print shows one. my print does not show the 2 small relays however. my plan now is to wire around the multi connector. it looks like it has been warm before, but no real visable damage to it is obvious. the machine has no seperate magnetic solenoid for the starter. it uses a gear reduction style starter, and the ign wire to excite the starter attches to starter via small screw in front of starter. i have replaced the 2 small square relays. my question is if i have 12 volts on battery post of starter switch, why don't i have 12 volts when i turn the key to on, start, or acc postions? this whole thing is really getting to me haha. thanks for your time aj.
 
I am finding it hard to understand,when you switch on the key does the dash lights come on,do the turn signals work,will the headlights come on,will the wipers work,if al those thing work at once the ignition switch should be ok to that point,turn them off,now turn the key to the start position,you should have 12v at that terminal,note the wire colour,that wire should go to the starter relay,opposite where that wire goes there should be a wire that goes to one side of the neutral start,from the other side of neutral start to ground,the two other wires on the relay,one is a feed with 12V,opposite terminal goes to the starter solenoid,what happens,you turn the key to start,power is sent to the relay and it closes,when closed power is sent to the starter solenoid,two things then happen when the solenoid is energized a plunger jumps back and make contact with the main battery cable in and out terminals,the starter turns and the bendix engages.
AJ
 
aj today i jumped the starter to move machine to more user friendly place to work on it. about half way there it died. lost power to fuel shut off solenoid. smoke from under machine somewhere. has to be a short in something i haven't found yet. will let you know what i find. not a lot of wiring in that machine, but still giving me fits. it's been rock reliable for me the last 12 years, but previous owner had done some wiring in the past it appears. i'll let you know what i find. thanks aj.
 
You need to disconnect the battery till you solve this problem as those Cases have been known to catch fire while been left unattended,the machines were built in France back in the day has to have a battery isolator switch fitted,the usual place for the problem was where the loom crossed over the bellhousing,there were a couple of clips there that could eat into the loom,the power been taken from the pump indicates a circuit breaker has popped,if you have a hand book they will be listed,again disconnect the battery when parking.
AJ
 
aj pulled engine wiring loom out best i could to pull apart multi connector. found the #10 battery wire fried inside plug. will wire around the multi connector. borrowed a fancy meter from a friend that showed 12 volts, little to none amps getting through the plug. hopefully i can remember where all those wires reconnect. that plug is in about the worst place it could be to work on without pulling dash harness. will let you know how things turn out. thanks aj.
 
aj the problem was fried #10 battery wire terminal in multi connector. i wired around it. got it all back together and started right up. drove about 10 and it died. i couldn't believe it. as it was, i didn't tighten neg battery cable and it had come off the battery. all seems good. thanks for the help. i really appreciate it. mike
 
Well done,you should consider fitting a battery isolator switch,it's a wise precaution against fire and theft.
AJ
 

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