Over restore?

FredR

Member
So. I'm kinda new to the Tractor/ Crawler/ Equipment restoration community. The question I have is this. Is it possible to "over restore" a machine? What is the general take on this? If it a common piece of equipment does it hurt the value? If it is a less common machine is it advisable to do a "Nut and Bolt" detailed restoration?
I know in the car comunity the "devel is in the details" and the more detailed you can get the better it shows, and therefore the value goes up. Is this the same in the arena??
I have a Case Terramatic Drive Deisel 610 that I am working on. I just don't know how far to tear into this machine before the laws of diminishing returns kicks in!
Thanks!
FredR
image_1.jpeg
 
As a rule, with crawlers, you can easily invest more than its actually worth or what a buyer will pay.

When terms like restoration are defined, it can have different meanings as well, which to me should be categorized, in general terms. A complete disassembly,inspection of every part, rebuild/replace as required to meet new specifications, including finish all the way through to completion, to me would be a total restoration with the end result of a completely overhauled tractor.

Something more feasible, would be going over all components of the tractor, do any necessary work to make repairs that would make the tractor field/work ready, re-setting the hour meter, not as if new, but close and it has the ability to provide considerable hours of use with routine maintenance. This can include a nice finish or not, but it has to be mechanically sound, no leaks, no repairs needed etc.

You could go over that crawler, measure up the undercarriage, see how much wear is on it, leave as is, rebuild to new or rebuild it to provide significant hours. Its possible that what you spend could vary, depending on how far you want to go with it, the present condition and what it needs to meet the above or similar. Its possible to reduce costs in some cases and not be excessively over the general value of the tractor, or what someone will pay, however with most of this old iron it generally does not happen. 1200 original hours if true, depending on what the service life it was designed for, might help, vs starting from a completely worn out tractor needing a ground up restoration to even work.

This is subjective, obviously, and like was stated above, you can easily get in for a lot more than you will ever sell it for. By the same token, you build something be it a total restoration, or whatever degree of restoring you do, there is value in the work it can do, so some will do just that. I have a friend with a D6 caterpillar, B or C series I forget now, but he put quite a bit of money into it, but it is for his farm, some enjoyment and or what have you, and he does have some acreage, greenhouse operation and does a lot of hay. Last time I was there one of his tractors was stuck near a pond, a neighbor came over with a 966 loader, but that D6 was ready and willing in the barn just the same.

I would agree, you'll potentially get top dollar for one that is done correctly, mechanically sound and aesthetically correct over one that is of unknown condition or appears to need any varying degree of work.

I prefer low hour machinery, if can be found. At the beginning of last summer, I bought a late 90's low hour ford tractor, something I have needed for years, its relatively clean, been inside most of its life, but it did need a lot of little things. Some not so cheap, but within reason, after going over it, making necessary repairs, even some paint/body work to the tin, but not the major castings except neatly done with touch up, most still looks new, I would not lose money on it. I can't say I'd make a huge profit, but given what it is, its fair to believe you could make a small profit, because its a desirable and well proven model with many years of good service left in it. To the right buyer its a worthy investment. I'll likely not sell it until its necessary, when I am too old or its not needed, I know pretty much what I have by now and as a buyer it was well worth the investment. Apples to oranges as far as crawlers and ag tractors go, but the philosophy is the same on how much you invest and what the market will bear at selling time.

Whats in the photos above is not likely a common machine, so once done, its going to be what a buyer will pay and you sure as heck would highly benefit from knowing that before you sink a dime into it LOL !
 
This machine is actually not very common at all! From what I can gather from talking to a few enthusiasts and info found on the internet there were only 78 built to start with in '58. This being an Ag crawler. This one spun a rod bearing and sat for about 16 years. I did see it run before that and it ran very well. The previous owner would fire it up once in a blue moon and because of that it was a dry start and took out a bearing. I pulled the engine apart and upon inspection I can say with confidence that the 1200 Hrs are accurate. Looking at the under carrage this machine spent time plowing fields, not building roads! One side is in good shape, the other side is more worn. Going in circles, around and around the field!
 
You were in the hole the minute you purchased that unit. Anything you spend on it will be only recovered by what little work you might get out of it. You will not be able to sell it for a lot and your are going to spend a ton if you do a total rebuild. Just get it going ,play with it and enjoy it.
 
(quoted from post at 10:58:42 12/19/15) This machine is actually not very common at all! From what I can gather from talking to a few enthusiasts and info found on the internet there were only 78 built to start with in '58. This being an Ag crawler. This one spun a rod bearing and sat for about 16 years. I did see it run before that and it ran very well. The previous owner would fire it up once in a blue moon and because of that it was a dry start and took out a bearing. I pulled the engine apart and upon inspection I can say with confidence that the 1200 Hrs are accurate. Looking at the under carrage this machine spent time plowing fields, not building roads! One side is in good shape, the other side is more worn. Going in circles, around and around the field!

Built 58 to 64. They had to make more than 78 of them for them to be in production that long. Just wouldn't be profitable to keep in production that long and no one has a serial number list for them. So actual number produced is unknown. An example is IH made the T5 and TD5 crawler in the same time frame with the T4 and T340, all very close in size. The T4/5 TD5 production ran from 59-64 and about 2200 units total were made. No one knows just how many 4's, 5's and diesel 5's were made for each machine. They are not worth very much. 2500 or so. You can add a little for a dozer blade, 3 point hitch or PTO. Sure not many out there but even less demand. And that is what will determine value is demand. If you have say a 1 of 6 units made and 20 prospective buyers the value goes up fast. Have that same 1 of 6 and no buyers it's worth scrap value.

So I wouldn't go jumping on the "it's gotta be worth lots" bandwagon real fast. Spend 5-6 K on a good restoration and find the right buyer and you could still turn a profit on it. Spend that much and find no buyers and it's worth 213 bucks at the scrap yard today.

Rick
 
I had a 610 with loader and ripper, wish I still had it,, they built many more than 78,, they were a good unit and CASE sold a fair amount of crawlers even when that model was built,,, with those hours you should be fine with a restore by doing the work yourself, please keep us posted on pour progress
cnt
 
I know that there were quite a few more 600's built but from what I can deduct from the info I have found these 610's were only built one year. Total 78 units. I may be wrong but either way, not that many built. I don't think they were built into the 60's.
 
I will be doing all the work myself, so I will be only into it for the cost of the parts and supplies. I enjoy doing this kind of work so I don't count the hours against the cost. Your crawler was a 610? Not a 600 with the ripper and loader?? Both machines were darn near identical except the 610's had a different hydrolic system and did not have the guards on the undercarriage and also the 610's came with a huge counter weight on the nose of the crawler. Just curious, that's all! I will post pics on my progress.
 
I'm realy not jumping on the "gotta be worth lots" band wagon. I realise the suply and demand on something like this, so no misconceptions there. If nobody wants it then for sure it's worthless. But, my original question is that , say, if there was 4 of these machines for sale out there, or any machine for that mater, would the machine that was detailed to the nine's
be considered a sale determent compared to one that was cleaned up nice, made to run fine but maybe just not as pretty but usable condition? Can these be made too pretty to be marketable??
Just wondering how things are in this segment of the restoration world.
FredR
 
Fred:

Try tractordata. They made 3 models of the 610.

1. 610 57 total built 350, 4X2 so a wheeled tractor.

http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/007/2/3/7230-ji-case-610.html

2. 610-B 58-59 was available as standard, row crop and orchard also a 4X2 wheeled 744 made

http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/001/5/4/1548-ji-case-610-b.html

3. 610 58-64 crawler available in gas and diesel. No production numbers listed.

http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/007/5/2/7523-ji-case-610.html

No other data is listed nor do they list serial numbers.

Not trying to sharp shoot you. Just that if they only made 78 of those with research and development Case would have gone broke and disappeared in the 60's doing something that stupid. Now it's possible that they only sold 78 of those without other attachments like a blade or which.

As far as collectability? Crawlers in general are not that popular with collectors. Can't really drive em around without tearing up the lawn. Can't run em on the street without putting wood or rubber pads on them so tractor rides/drives are out and most collectors collect what they grew up with, wheeled tractors. There is one dedicated to crawlers only site I know of and that's for JD. There is a forum on the redpower board from IH construction equipment and there is a Cat machinery owners board for everything Cat made. Now some of the very early crawlers are highly desirable but those again are limited to a small group of collectors who have room for them and the ability to transport them. A very few are really valuable. Transportation is the biggest problem. Your 610 tips the scales just over 9,000 LBS. Now add 5K for a trailer suitable to move it and a pickup, 3/4 ton. You are right up there in the 20/21K weight range. Too big for most people. Add a blade and ripper you are pushing that magic 26K weight number. Now this isn't for sure but I think that's what stops a lot of people from owning one. LOL heck most men want to own a dozer from the time they are born! I have a D4 7U Cat (1947). About the same size as your 610. Bare tractor is about 1K more than your 610. With the bull blade it's just over 14K! I also own a tractor loader backhoe that tips the scales at 14K. That's in the 1 ton range and with an legal trailer really pushing the 26K weight limit for a Class B CDL.

Now as far as correct bolts? Yea at some shows that could make a difference. I know IH was on the bolt heads of IH tractors. If you are looking to win best of show it can make a difference. To some collectors it could raise the value too. By how much I have no idea.

Rick
 
And Fred FWIW I love old machinery. Crawlers are even better in my book. So I'm hoping that you take lots of pictures of the progress!

On another thought there is a guy who hangs out in the Case forum here on YT who is knows a lot about case stuff. Casenutty is what he goes by. Maybe you should post over there to get his and other Case guys take on your 610.

Rick
 
Looked again at the first picture. Looks like that had a blade on it at one time with the mounts to the outside of the track frame.

Rick
 
Yes, it had a blade on it and I have the blade. It also has had not much heavy use. I don't think it was a crawler that came with the blade from the factory. I'm going to hazzard a guess here but I think it may be an Allied blade. It has some Flambeau red paint on it so it could have been a dealer install. The way it was mounted was in my opinion probably the worst
way you could mount the rams for the blade! The rams hooked to the top of the brace seen in the picture and then about half way on the C frame of the blade. The C frame then bolted to the bottom of those braces. The amount of stress placed on those blade mounts had to be huge, that's why one of them ( the other side) is broke off and missing. If I could find a
brace for it that would be great! I guess I have to start looking. Any idea where to look??
I love anything mechanical! The odder the better! I will probably go over board on this crawler and loose my shirt on it but what the hell....they quit making these things a while back, right!! I enjoy bringing them back!
 
http://jicasecollector.com/case-built-crawlers.html
This is where I got some info on units built. I'm not saying it's correct but it is about the only info I could find on a 610 crawler production unit number.
 
I have restored multiple crawlers for customers over the years, there is only one of the group that has even a remote chance of ever bringing enough money to recoup the cost of restoration let alone cost of acquisition and trucking. Not that it is impossible, but I would be willing to guess that it is almost impossible. One of the crawlers I did years ago just sold, and the owner took a horrible bath. If you restore a crawler, and I mean restore, not power wash, oil change and paint job, it has to be something that you want to own. As I have told countless customers over the years, if final value enters into your decision making process, sell it now and find another hobby.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, hell I would, and do. But I do so knowing that I am the only person it is worth that much to in terms of a personally owned machine.
Lavoy
 
Tractor data list the test results from the Nebraska test which is pretty much industry standards. While sites like the Case site you list can be a good resource Tractor data gives more info that you can use too. I'd have a tendency to accept what's listed there more than a site like Repower, YT or the Case site.

The Nebraska test were started to keep manufactures for lying about HP and other things and having aa set test standard that all brands were subjected to. It's not perfect but it set a bar for each manufacturer.

Nebraska tractor tests: Tests, mandated by a Nebraska law and administered by the University of Nebraska, that objectively tested the performance of all brands sold in Nebraska. In the 1920s and 1930s, an era of snake oil sales and advertising tactics, the Nebraska tests helped farmers throughout North America to see through marketing claims and make informed buying decisions. The tests continue today, making sure the snake oil, which has mostly been vanquished, stays that way.

http://tractortestlab.unl.edu/

Tractor dates of manufacture were reported to the test facility by the manufacturers or tractors were submitted for those test.

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 16:06:03 12/20/15) I have restored multiple crawlers for customers over the years, there is only one of the group that has even a remote chance of ever bringing enough money to recoup the cost of restoration let alone cost of acquisition and trucking. Not that it is impossible, but I would be willing to guess that it is almost impossible. One of the crawlers I did years ago just sold, and the owner took a horrible bath. If you restore a crawler, and I mean restore, not power wash, oil change and paint job, it has to be something that you want to own. As I have told countless customers over the years, if final value enters into your decision making process, sell it now and find another hobby.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, hell I would, and do. But I do so knowing that I am the only person it is worth that much to in terms of a personally owned machine.
Lavoy

For what it's worth Lavoy is a great source of information about JD crawlers specifically and crawlers in general. He owns the dedicated JD crawler site I mentioned. Nice site and lots of info. One of these days I'm going to see if he can't find me a cheap MC! That's the first crawler I got to run!

Rick
 
My original question was can a piece of equipment be over restored to the point of it being a non-sale because it is now un-usable, because it is too nice. Maybe my question was not all that clear, perhaps? If not, my bad!
I don't just power wash and paint, I can't seem to bring myself to do that! I end up going way over tthe top and clean everything and detail it to better than what it was out of the factory. I guess if that means that for the general collector who wants to pull a plow or push some dirt does not want a machine that is pristine, I get that. It makes sense. Forthe same reason that not mant people will drag race a numbers matching Boss 429 Mustang. Buit for the collector who wants something that is top shelf, they may be few and far between., but if they are looking for the right machine, then I guess market will dictate price.
So, in a nutshell, I guess restore to the level that one is comfortable with and don't hang ones hat on making a ton of money, or any for that mater and just have fun doing what we do! If we make some money, Great! if we sell it and make some one else happy, Great!
After all...Hobby, right??
 
(quoted from post at 18:58:19 12/20/15) My original question was can a piece of equipment be over restored to the point of it being a non-sale because it is now un-usable, because it is too nice. Maybe my question was not all that clear, perhaps? If not, my bad!
I don't just power wash and paint, I can't seem to bring myself to do that! I end up going way over tthe top and clean everything and detail it to better than what it was out of the factory. I guess if that means that for the general collector who wants to pull a plow or push some dirt does not want a machine that is pristine, I get that. It makes sense. Forthe same reason that not mant people will drag race a numbers matching Boss 429 Mustang. Buit for the collector who wants something that is top shelf, they may be few and far between., but if they are looking for the right machine, then I guess market will dictate price.
So, in a nutshell, I guess restore to the level that one is comfortable with and don't hang ones hat on making a ton of money, or any for that mater and just have fun doing what we do! If we make some money, Great! if we sell it and make some one else happy, Great!
After all...Hobby, right??

OK your original question never addressed it being usable. It dealt with going too far as to make it unsaleable. Sure you can find a guy looking for a dozer to do some work with who doesn't know too much about them who has plans of working whatever they buy. I made that mistake with the first one I bought. I was lucky that I only paid scrap value for a basket case with absolutely no parts support and was able to get my value back out of it.

Usability has nothing to do with how well you do the restoration and everything to do with availability of wear parts. In the case of a crawler the tracks and undercarriage. There you will have to go to the Case web site parts look up and see what is available. You can also check Berco for aftermarket track and undercarriage parts. Some of the old crawlers are not supported at all. Like the old IH ones. On those some guys have been modifying them to accept newer parts from other crawlers but for the average user that is beyond their abilities. So when the undercarriage is shot it goes to scrap most often. Lavoy recently came into ownership of a T5 IH. Not track or undercarriage parts available from any source. So for a guy who want to work it is isn't worth much if the plan is to put any real hours on it a year. Most of the antique collectors are looking for the small crawlers like the Case 310, JD 2 cylinder models, IH T/Td 4/5/6's, Clark Air, Cat D2 and other small easy to transport to shows type crawlers.

I am by no means telling you that you don't want to restore it. A guy on here a few years ago and his son restored an old Oliver crawler loader. Did a very nice job too! Posted lots of pictures. But they had to find used parts for most of the undercarriage. They were able to get new pins and bushings for the track but had to cut down track shoes from something else.

It can go like this. Good tracks for a IH T/TD 5 crawler [b:eb9acfb985]can[/b:eb9acfb985] be worth more than a running T/TD5. Demand for parts is higher than demand for the whole crawler.

Location can make a difference too. Here in MN running crawlers are very desirable. Lot of people have visions of hauling logs out of the woods for firewood or clearing small plots for hunting. What will bring 3-5K here sells in CA or AZ for 1500.

I have a friend, shirt tail relative actually, who restores old tractors and sells them. It's his hobby. He claims that he has yet to make any money on anything he's restored and sold. Heck, I have several collectable farm tractors. 2 Ford 8N's. Current unrestored market value, here, 1500-1800 dollars. Pristine restoration here? 2500. Cost of the running tractor 1500. Cost to rebuild the engine, 1200. And that isn't counting any other parts, paint or tires. Farmall M. Value as is? 1K. Cost to restore would be about 3 K. Restored value? Maybe 2500 on a very good day. Farmall 1206. Paid 5K. Cost to restore and do every thing and do it right? 10K. Restored value? 20-25K. Now drop down to working class and decent restoration? 8N worth little more than unrestored value. M? No gain. 1206? Still way up there.

Not saying don't do it. I love to see old equipment restored and kept alive. I'm just saying that I wouldn't expect it to be worth much and that you can take a bath on it. Heck, I dump money into several hobbies that I will never make money back on. Nothing wrong with that.

To be honest your original post got me interested with the "only made 78 in one year". I had to research that. I found conflicting information leading me to believe that your source was in error. It happens. Not your fault by any means. That's why I posted links to another site that disagrees with your info. I didn't want or expect you to take me for my word. I did look at the site you listed before you posted you link. I did it because I was curious. I'd never heard of a 610.

Rick
 
Don't know how well it will work but my email is open. You wanna call me dirty names or whatever we can talk. I have no problem with that. Click of modern view. Email stuff should be there.

Rick
 
HaHa! No, no dirty names!! I understand what you are saying. More often than not , text when read can mean different things to different people and can be interpreted as being agressive or sarcastic. I hope that I am not coming across that way? Not my intention for sure! Your post on the value of other tractors value to restore, then sell for a lower price is the
reality of the hobby. Unfortunate, but the nature of the beast. It's the same in the muscle car hobby. I restored my first car, a '70 Torino Cobra. I put more into it than it's appraised value, but I enjoy driving it and it is quite rare. You just don't see them at car shows or on the street. Is it desirable? Well, not as much as a Hemi 'Cuda, but if you want to own something
different then it makes it a little more appealing.( I have owned this car since '79 so I have no intention of selling it, so it's worth more to me that it is to someone else. ) Kind of like some of the tractors you have described.
Guys like us do this restoration because we enjoy it, and that puts some intrinsic value into the project it's self. Better description would be "Entropic Value" ! Value that you put in, but will never get back out, but needs to be there or nothing happens! I think that is the only thing that keeps these hobbies alive.
Sure don't look like we do it for the money!! HaHaHa!
 
My Tank Commander had one of those 74/75 when I was on my first tour of Ft Riley. I'd pay more for that than I would any Chrysler product!

Rick
 
I suspect you are going to do it, by the looks of your Torino. Having restored a few pus and tractors I don't know that you can over restore. It is the same as the autos in my opinion that the better you do it the more it will bring. sonebody will buy it. You won't price that Torino or it would be gone. You can probably do pretty well on that dozer selling it as is. There are lots of Case collectors out there.
 

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