TD9 problem head? Crack? Water? Tune in

I had purchased a TD 9 and it had one of few problems; the fourth cylinder wasn't firing. The engine emitted a gray smoke. When bleeding the bolt on the injector, the smoke would disappear. When closing the bolt the smoke would return. When the engine was low on water the engine would sputter -intermittently- and then the fourth cylinder would be firing and the engine operating well. I cleaned the injector in the fourth cylinder, though it made no difference.

Finally, I started the engine when the engine was low on water. The engine operated on all four cylinders. The engine operated for a half hour, and then I added water. Soon the engine began to smoke. Later I checked the valve setting. All settings were good except the third cylinder, it had 50 and 52 thousandths instead of 019 thousandths. Having the engine operate, becoming warm, I shut the engine off and after removing the valve cover, I torqued the head bolts to 180 ft. lbs. I observed a couple of nuts was a half turn loose, and at the front of the head there was four nuts that was one turn loose. In any event, all nuts was torqued in sequence, and torqued well.

Installing the components, the valve cover, and filled the engine with water. I started the engine and more smoke gray/white emitted.

I loosened the injector bolt on the fourth cylinder; there was no change in rpm as before, and smoke still emitted. the third cylinder rpm dropped suddenly and the second also. However, when loosening the injector bolt on the first cylinder there was no change in rpm. This was the first time for the first cylinder.

I removed the head. The first and third cylinder had crack between the valves. On the third cylinder, that crack ad been addressed with brazing. the first cylinder had not been addressed. At the injector port of each cylinder except the fourth cylinder had good burn. The fourth cylinder was black -completely. Observing the fourth cylinder piston, I observed that apparently some kind of material was on top the piston and hammered the top of the piston on one side. At the other side, at the edge of the piston, there was a small piece of piston top missing. Like 1/16 in, a bit more than 1/16 across, and 1/16 back to the edge. The cylinder wall was absent of any scrape, or scar.

Now, what do we make of this? Could the cracks be welded? Does the missing little piece make any difference? Is the gasket leaking water? There is no water in the oil and there is no oil in the water. Could the head be warped? When re-torquing the engine could that have affected the head, if it was warped?

I invite those that have experienced similar experiences as described above. As I have observed that there may be 6 - 9 replys; there could be 879 views. In turn helping more people than just me.

Okay now come out of the wood work.

Thanx

The head can be repaired alot of shops now pin the cracks.
All those heads on the ih gas start diesels are prone to
cracking.

(quoted from post at 20:02:30 01/28/15) The head can be repaired alot of shops now pin the cracks.
All those heads on the ih gas start diesels are prone to
cracking.

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Thanx Do you think the gasket was leaking water???? What are your thoughts about the three cylinders showing good burn, gray color, and the fourth cylinder being completely black, wet????

The black/wet cylinder is a bad injector. The head gasket is
not really a factor with these... they are prone to cracking
heads especially when the engine is not warmed up and
cooled down properly. I know with the heads on my engines
the torque spec on head bolts is 110lb ft.

The fragments on top of the piston is more than likely pieces of piston ring that has broken up and hammered into coffee like granules,look carefully around the circumference of the top of the piston for any little gaps.the ring can break up in it's groove into tiny fragments and get up past the piston and hammered into it as it goes up and down,examine the pieces,ring fragments can have edges that are very square,if the debris came from something else like a valve seat or previous metal stitching,that engine has more things that can cause misfiring than the conventional diesel,the valves for the decompression must be making a good seal so when on diesel the compression is not escaping,we used to remove the plugs with the engine running to check for blow by,did you check for blow by at the oil filler while you had the diesel running,if there was heavy blow by it would point again to the piston rings,are you going to get the head stitched up and the valves checked or look for another head,the torque,what size are the bolts or studs.
AJ

There is a complete TD9 on Penn Woods.Net, under construction equip. They want $800 obo. It is in Western, Pa.
Lots of parts and they are hard to find.

Instead of guessing, you need to have the head pressure tested and the injectors as well. What do you know about the history of the tractor? If as has been mentioned it was not warmed up and cooled down properly you may also have leaking starting valves. When you shut it off when you are done working it make sure that you flip the handle to diesel so the valves can seat. More questions?

In three different places, the head nuts were stated 185 ft. lbs. These nuts are large like; 7/8 socket. Today I pulled the two valves in the fourth cylinder head. The exhaust seat was like someone hit it with a ball pein hammer. The valve did not look as bad. The intake valve looked okay; however, the seat was black at one spot perhaps 1/2 inch long. The exhaust port has much carbon.

(quoted from post at 12:00:29 01/29/15) The fragments on top of the piston is more than likely pieces of piston ring that has broken up and hammered into coffee like granules,look carefully around the circumference of the top of the piston for any little gaps.the ring can break up in it's groove into tiny fragments and get up past the piston and hammered into it as it goes up and down,examine the pieces,ring fragments can have edges that are very square,if the debris came from something else like a valve seat or previous metal stitching,that engine has more things that can cause misfiring than the conventional diesel,the valves for the decompression must be making a good seal so when on diesel the compression is not escaping,we used to remove the plugs with the engine running to check for blow by,did you check for blow by at the oil filler while you had the diesel running,if there was heavy blow by it would point again to the piston rings,are you going to get the head stitched up and the valves checked or look for another head,the torque,what size are the bolts or studs.
AJ

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There were no piece(s) on top of piston. At one time there was. There is a that small part of the piston top ,at the edge, that is missing. Today I pulled the two valves in the fourth cylinder head. The exhaust seat was like someone hit it with a ball pein hammer. The valve did not look as bad. The intake valve looked okay; however, the seat was black at one spot perhaps 1/2 inch long. The exhaust port has much carbon.
I am going to have the head cracks welded; the valves corrected, and the nuts for the heads take a 7/8 socket. Everywhere I look the torque is 185 ft. lbs.
I think the valves are part of the problem; and the gasket leaking being the other -so far.

(quoted from post at 12:59:47 01/29/15)
There is a complete TD9 on Penn Woods.Net, under construction equip. They want $800 obo. It is in Western, Pa.
Lots of parts and they are hard to find.

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I found -www.pennswoods.net -not pennwoods.net. Checked under construction equipment, and there is no TD9 listing -unfortunately. Don't know if I was at the correct place, though I think so. Too bad, would have jumped on it.

Yes -I just checked on the TD9 that was on PennsWoods.net and the ad isn't there anymore. It probably sold.

(quoted from post at 10:24:57 02/02/15)
Yes -I just checked on the TD9 that was on PennsWoods.net and the ad isn't there anymore. It probably sold.

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Thanx
I talked to a welder who welded many of these type heads. He said it is better to find a head without cracks. These heads were famous for leaking water; and with the preignition the heads would be pitted. With the water, leaking and the rust, there usually wasn't enough metal to work with, as the welder has to heat the metal to such a high degree and build the weld.
Probably will have to locate a head.

Burgh implement here in Pa had a couple of those machines this summer. Give John a call at 724-452-6880

The head can be cold welded. Dad did a lot of them
back in the 60's including his own.

(quoted from post at 06:22:17 02/03/15)
Burgh implement here in Pa had a couple of those machines this summer. Give John a call at 724-452-6880

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Thank you, I wi;ll check it out.

(quoted from post at 11:35:01 02/03/15) The head can be cold welded. Dad did a lot of them
back in the 60's including his own.

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Thanx for the input. I think you are correct.
Tomorrow I am going to take some pic's and place them here.
One; the valve seat at number 4 cylinder, the top of the piston, and a close look at the head itself.

(quoted from post at 19:00:02 02/03/15)

(quoted from post at 11:35:01 02/03/15) The head can be cold welded. Dad did a lot of them
back in the 60's including his own.

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Thanx for the input. I think you are correct.
Tomorrow I am going to take some pic's and place them here.
One; the valve seat at number 4 cylinder, the top of the piston, and a close look at the head itself.

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pic's

(quoted from post at 19:00:02 02/03/15)

(quoted from post at 11:35:01 02/03/15) The head can be cold welded. Dad did a lot of them
back in the 60's including his own.

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Thanx for the input. I think you are correct.
Tomorrow I am going to take some pic's and place them here.
One; the valve seat at number 4 cylinder, the top of the piston, and a close look at the head itself.

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pic's

Not sure if your interested, but I saw a lot of "WD9"s which was the Ag. version of this engine, and the main reason they cracked is they needed to be warmed up and cooled down. The owners that did this never had as many issues

(quoted from post at 21:38:21 02/04/15) Not sure if your interested, but I saw a lot of "WD9"s which was the Ag. version of this engine, and the main reason they cracked is they needed to be warmed up and cooled down. The owners that did this never had as many issues

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I am aware and I do understand. the condition of this head is before me; like before I purchased it. I am looking for another head -without cracks.
thank you

Yes, when I saw you had just purchased, I assumed the head issues were already in place.

Might be rough to find a good head. Hope you can find one

I've never seen flattop pistons in a gas start diesel before, all of the ones I've seen are inverted dome, are they gas pistons? This would surely give you lots more compression.

(quoted from post at 19:43:02 02/11/15) I've never seen flattop pistons in a gas start diesel before, all of the ones I've seen are inverted dome, are they gas pistons? This would surely give you lots more compression.

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Thank you first; This TD, 9 I think was manufactured somewhere in the 40's. A person who has much experience with these crawlers, engines, told me the engine was somewhere in the 40's when I gave him the casting number of the head, 8101 D6. I only know this crawler is original, and spent most of its life in the desert of arizona -those cotton fields.

No wonder it was running badly,the valves were not sealing very well,that piston needs to be removed and replaced,a valve job metal stitching the head would hold it for a while but it never is permanent,there is only one repair to a cracked head and that is pool welding,[furnace welding].
AJ

(quoted from post at 09:47:35 02/12/15) No wonder it was running badly,the valves were not sealing very well,that piston needs to be removed and replaced,a valve job metal stitching the head would hold it for a while but it never is permanent,there is only one repair to a cracked head and that is pool welding,[furnace welding]. AJ

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Thanx for your input AJ. I am now discerning which is the best direction. A welder tells me he will weld the head for 825.00 +tax I think it means, cold weld. Another person will give me a re-manufactured head; leveled, as needed valve guides, valve seats. This is just bare head. With exchange 1,075. one year warranty. Oh, shipping included. I think this is much the going rate. Another person, who has claimed 30 years of business, says he would drill hole in each end of crack and stitch together, also do the valve seats. He claims he would charge much, much less than 825.00 above mentioned. What does everyone think about the above???

(quoted from post at 06:22:17 02/03/15)
Burgh implement here in Pa had a couple of those machines this summer. Give John a call at 724-452-6880

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I phoned John and give him the casting number on the head -8101d6 or dg. He has one; even the complete engine. Is the head with the casting number 8101d6 or dg the original head for the 334.5 cu. in. engine? Does any one know? I know the 350 cu. in. had rectangular plates on one side of the head.
Let me know -someone. I think the 8101d6 or dg was from an older TD 9 like 40's

John at Burghs is a good friend. Tell him to give you "Chemist John's discount".

(quoted from post at 06:19:48 02/18/15)
John at Burghs is a good friend. Tell him to give you "Chemist John's discount".

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Already purchased the complete engine. I think I got a good deal. John has been a good person to speak/deal with. Thanx for turning me on.

(quoted from post at 09:47:35 02/12/15) No wonder it was running badly,the valves were not sealing very well,that piston needs to be removed and replaced,a valve job metal stitching the head would hold it for a while but it never is permanent,there is only one repair to a cracked head and that is pool welding,[furnace welding].
AJ

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AJ, I pulled that piston -ugh. The top piston ring had chewed the piston well. There was one short part of the top ring.
anyway, I was going to use a piston out of another TD 9; however, that piston measured 4 and 7/16 across the piston top.
The bad piston shown here measures 4 and 3/16. Okay so the one piston will not fit into the cylinder. good grief. So, I don't know how the piston could have the ring break; imbed in the piston top, and the cylinder wall has not a mark anywhere??
Do you know where I can get a piston of this size -being a simple remedy?? both pistons are 5 rings, and the rods interchange -just different diameters. What do you think?
Anyone!?