diesel fuel additive, or no??

NIK OWEN

Member
trucker friend/partner thinks low sulphur off
road diesel not sufficient lube for pump &
injectors,,,do i need 2 add 2=strole oil to my
fuel, 1980 vintage 504 case diesel/turbo???
be blessed, grateful, prepared, nik
 
I work on construction equipment for a living. That said I tell all of my customers that if they aren't running additive, regardless of the age of the engine, but even more importantly for the older ones, then they are just asking for trouble. I can say that with a bit of authority because I've seen, and heard of more than my share in the years since the ULSD hit the market, that didn't run additive and had problems, when those running it didn't.

On a more personal note, I've run additive in my service truck, at the suggestion of the guys that do all my fuel pump work, since before the ULSD hit. For me it worked out to another 1 to 2 MPG gained with the additive -vs- without it.

That said, I've heard of using two stroke oil for a long time now, but can't say whether it does as good as the store bought stuff designed specifically as a diesel additive.
 
The most common problem with the lower-lube level in ultra-low-sulfur-diesel is with rotary mechanical fuel-injection pumps. The US military has had BIG problems with premature wear with the Stanadyne pumps in the Detroit Diesel and GM designed 6.2s and 6.5s. The simple fact is - there is is no such thing as "too much lube." Too little however will have pump parts wear prematurely - along with other moving metal parts under stress in the fuel system.
One big problem with all the "experts" saying there are no problems is this (in my opinion). A rotary mechanical pump e.g. Standadyne DB, DB2, or a CAV/Rotodiesel can go 1,000,000 miles (road vehice) or 30,000 engine hours before major metal parts wear out with proper lube. If the life was cut in half - how many people here would ever notice? Not many, if any, I bet. Also consider that when you buy a so-called "rebuilt" injector pump - many if not most of the major moving metal parts already have extremely high hours or miles on them.
Last I checked, buying Super Tech two-stroke oil in gallon jugs at Walmart and adding to your fuel with a 1 to 200 ratio is best protection for the dollar. Costs 6 cents per gallon and is cheap insurance.
 
I have been using powerservice in all my diesel's for over 10 years now.Before that I used home heating oil which had a high sulfur content
 
NC,
Just wondering about the amount of additive that should be added to fuel for a '65 HD3. Looking at the additive bottle it says about a half ounce per gallon of fuel. Should I follow those instructions or add a little more? Another question, I plan to run number one diesel this winter in northern Minnesota because of cold conditions.Should I be adding anything special to that grade of diesel? Any and all thoughts are welcome.
Mr. T. Minnesota
 
I checked with my supplier last year and he said the sulfur content was up in the hundreds ppm
I always add antgel additives as the temps do go below zero
 
Most places in the USA have switched to ultra-low sulfur diesel for heating oil. That is certainly the case in NY and MI. Only difference between now between heating oil and off-road farm fuel is the lube. No lube additive is put into heating oil, whereas it has to be put into off-road farm fuel.
Fuel additives are a must to prevent gelling. Many fuel sellers put it in before you buy it. So the question is if you can tell what you're getting from the pump. Adding some of your own is good insurance if you have to run your diesel in temps below 10 degrees F and your equipment is parked in an unheated place. Not a huge deal for rigs that are parked in heated areas. Once running the return fuel heats the fuel in the tank to prevent gelling unless it gets REAL cold outside.
Or - just take some of the usual fuel you use, stick it in a freezer at 0 degrees - and see what happens to it.
 
When I put it in the fuel for my service truck I simply give it a splash that looks about right for the gallons I put in. That said, if you think about the change in the fuel's content it's in parts per million. In other words it doesn't/ shouldn't take a lot to put the fuel back to where it needs to be. If it were me I'd add the amount recommended by the mfg. Then, me being me, I'd probably add a little bit more ((((( thinking if this much is good a little more is better))))just to be safe.
 
I always use 2 cycle oil in my military 6.2 diesel powered pick-up.. 8 ounces per tank full.. At the dealership I worked at , the Chevy and Ford trucks with Stanadyne pumps were junk at 12-13,000 miles because no lube in fuel.. I use blue oil as it doesn't show up as off road fuel just incase we get checked..
 
I don't know what happened to rigs where you worked. I worked on many 5.7 and 6.2 GMs when they were new. Biggest problem was the plastic dampener coming apart on the governor and that had nothing to do with fuel. That problem was eliminated in model year 1985 in all Fords, Chevys, and GMCs. Besides the fuel was fine in the USA until they started cooking the lube out of it to make ultra low sulfur fuel. Military rigs were and are a whole different situation because they all used A-1 jet fuel or JP8 military fuel with low lube. The US Army was putting Stanadyne "Arctic" fuel kits in many to make them last longer. It was often the low-pressure advance pump-blades that wore out.

Here's a list of military spec pumps on 6.2s. Anything with the "1.2 cSt" at the end has an Arctic kit installed.

DB2829-4355 23500014 1984 HMMWV (Military) C/K DB2829-4471 Note 5
DB2829-4440 23500276 1985 HMMWV (Military) - 1.2 cSt C/K DB2829-4523 Note 2
DB2829-4471 23500398 1985 HMMWV (Military) C/K DB2829-4524 Note 2
DB2829-4520 23500413 1986-87 CUCV (Military), HD D Truck C/K
DB2829-4521 23500414 1986-87 CUCV (Military), HD D Truck - 1.2 cSt C/K
DB2829-4523 23500415 1986-89 HMMWV (Military) - 1.2 cSt C/K
DB2829-4524 23500416 1986-89 HMMWV (Military) C/K
DB2829-4847 10149679 1990 HMMWV (Military) G DB2829-4878 Note 8 exc. (e) & (f)
DB2829-4848 10149634 1990 HMMWV (Military) - 1.2 cSt G DB2829-4879 Note 8 exc. (e) & (f)
DB2829 - 4875 not listed as military but military suplus shows they were purchased for $1800 each.
DB2829-4878 10149633 1990½ HMMWV (Military) G
DB2829-4879 10149634 1990½ HMMWV (Military) - 1.2 cSt G
DB2829-4879 10149634 1990½ HMMWV (Military)



US Army did a study on Stanadyne pump wear in 6.2s and 6.5s and released these results:

Xl. RECOMMENDATIONS
The following recommendations are made as a result of this study:

1. In areas outside arctic applications (i.e., Alaska), continuous use of neat Jet A-1 should be discontinued in Stanadyne pumps.

2. JP-8 or equivalent appears to provide acceptable pump durability.

3. The metallurgy in the arctic components represents a significant improvement and should be used if possible.

4. The results from the present limited study indicate that a BOCLE wear scar diameter of approximately 0.65 mm corresponds to the minimum acceptable fuel lubricity

5. The following areas require further study:
a) The effects of temperature on fuel system wear. For example, until data to the contrary am obtained, continuous use of Jet A-l/DF-A fuel on year-round basis in arctic areas such as Alaska is judged to be acceptable.
b) The effects of sulfur content and fuel composition in general on fuel system wear and its relation to the standard bench wear tests.
c) Scuffing wear and its measurement
d) The effects of fuel lubricity on the durability of other fuel injection systems besides Stanadyne, especially unit injector systems.

Info from:

9. "Accelerated Fuel-Engines Qualification Procedures Methodology Engine Test 210-Hour Wheeled Vehicle Cycle Using the GM 6.2L Diesel Engine Operating on JP-8 Fuel," prepared by U.S. Army Fuels and Lubricants Research Laboratory, Southwest Research institute, San Antonio, TX, October 1985


11 "10,000 Mile JP-8 Fuel Test of 6.2L Diesel Engines in M1028 CUCV Vehicles", prepared by General Motors Corporation Military Vehicles Operations, STS CUCV % PROJECT REQUEST 87-027, Warren, MI, July 1987.

12. Montemayor, A.F. and Owens, E.C., “Comparison of 6.2L Arctic and Standard Fuel Injection Pumps Using JP-8 Fuel," Interim Report BFLRF No.232 (AD A 175597), prepared by Belvoir Fuels and Lubricants Research Facility (SwRI), Southwest Research Institute, San Antonio, TX, October 1986.

20. Lacey, P.I. and Lestz, 8.3.. "Failure Analysis of Fuel injection Pumps From Generator Sets Fueled With Jet A-1," interim Report BFLRF No.268 (AD A234930), prepared by Belvoir Fuels and Lubricants Research Facility (SwRI), Southwest Research Institute, San Antonio, DC, January 1991.

21. Lacey, P.I. and Lestz, S.J., "Wear Analysis of Diesel Engine Fuel injection Pumps From Military Ground Equipment Fueled With Jet A-1," interim Report BFLRF No.272 (AD A239022), prepared by Belvoir Fuels and Lubricants Research Facility (SwRI), Southwest Research Institute, San Antonio, DC, May 1991.

25. Stanadyne Service Bulletin No. 125R1, "Field Conversions for Low Viscosity Fuel Operation," December 1990

52. Kanakia, M.D. and Moses, C.A., "Study of Mechanisms of Fuel Lubricity” Letter Report BFLRF No.250, prepared by Belvoir Fuels and Lubricants Research Facility (SwRI), Southwest Research Institute, San Antonio, DC. August 1989.
 
(quoted from post at 16:56:30 10/20/14) trucker friend/partner thinks low sulphur off
road diesel not sufficient lube for pump &
injectors,,,do i need 2 add 2=strole oil to my
fuel, 1980 vintage 504 case diesel/turbo???
be blessed, grateful, prepared, nik

There are millions of diesels running throughout the world without additves. Wouldn't you think there would be major worldwide breakkdowns if low sulfur fuel was such a big issue?
Let the low sulfur issue die already.
 
We had lots of pump failures when the LSD was introduced for road vehicles here in the UK,anything with the Bosch VP44 was certain to fail and the diesel got blamed,the guy at my place that does the fuel injection always maintained that is was not the fuel but that was causing the rotors to lock up and snap the shaft but bad machining,he noticed that the replacements parts were better finished and those pumps were not coming back though running on the same fuel,so I think it was a pump fault that was blamed on the fuel,having to use additives is not a good idea,esp with diesel cars bit of a miss and hit,Mom doing the school run in her diesel Golf may not think to put in the additive,probably put in gas instead,about pumps on off road machinery we have no records of any of them failing due to using road fuel,water in the fuel causes the bulk of the problems,the old inline pumps were better in every way,they were oil lubricated,easier to bleed,better starting,now we moved on the common rail Bah,but a great earner.
AJ
 
In-line pumps have NO distributor to worry
about (the weakest link in rotaries). Also an
in-pump has a separate injection pump for each
cylinder. A rotary has one central pump for
ALL cylinders. So an in-line has to do much
less work in the life of an engine. An 8
cylinder engine running at 2000 RPM with an in-
line pump has each pump working 1000 times a
minute. A rotary has the central pump at 2000
RPM working 6000 times a minute (if my math is
correct). That is a huge difference.
Besides the head and rotors getting so worn
the engines will not start hot, but start well
cold - there is the other more common wear
issue. The charge pumps get worn out often @
120,000-150,000 miles and then the timing
advance gets sluggish. How many truck users
even know it when their timing advance gets
weak?
 
The Bosch pump Aj mentioned the VP44 is a distributor type pump not an inline,I would bet it been called other things too that cant be posted here,I had a few small Opel powered diesel vans that my drivers use fitted with that pump and we had that trouble with them seizing up,change the pump and all is well,no take it to the dealer and have it chipped its a load of,we buy the road fuel in bulk and had no trouble with anything else,putting oil in the fuel is not an option due to smoke regulations.I dont think that you guys on here need worry about the pumps on the stuff you are running as most of it is pension age,and none will have the drive by wire crap either.
Ed
 
I've got several vehicles with VE44s made by
Bosch. Also one clone made by Diesel Kiki. 44
series (VE for "distributor) not as trouble-prone
as the VP44s. All are subject to premature wear
with low-lube fuel. Just happens that the VP44
has even more issues due to a computer chip,
higher working pressure -and machining goofs done
by Bosch in the head & rotor assembly.
 
Here's a link to test results on the lubricating properties of fuel treated with different additives. You'll see that most of your additives make no real difference in lubricity of fuel, and some even lower it.

For all the more it costs, it can't hurt to run some 2-stroke. Especially with a rotary injection pump.
I know it didn't take long when I started running it in my 90 Cummins to notice it was running quieter, and I got back the puff of smoke on hard acceleration that I had lost when they started blending fuel that winter.
lubricity test results
 
Straight number 1, I'd add a lot of 2-stroke. Mix it 50/50 with #2 and you should be good for gelling, then run about 200:1 2-stroke. A quart per 50 gallons.
 
The boards are the main problem in them in the Dodge trucks. Bad lift pumps cause problems, but just as often the electronics.

If you get a cheap rebuilt vp44 with fresh shiny gloss black paint, take it back and tell them to shove it up their backside. There's a rebuilder out of the Balkans that replaces worn parts that don't measure within spec, toss it in the paint booth, and send it out. No actual bench testing is done and more than likely the board is fried.

The VE44, on the other hand, 300-400,000 miles, bump the starter, and they are running, providing you don't like running bad fuel or straight #1.
 

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