TD9 Problem with starter turning engine -smoking hot, quick

Hello, I have replaced the rear oil seal. Pulling the engine out completely, is the best, easiest, and smartest thing to do. Having put the engine back in the dozer, I have attempted to start it. My TD 9 has 12 volt generator, starter, and battery. Originally, I think it must have had a 6 volt system. In any event, When I attempted -before and now, the engine turns slow; the starter and starter button, begin smoking and get very hot in a short time -like 5 to 8 seconds max. I am unable to start the engine. I spray a small amount of either, and perhaps one, two cylinders fire then the starter, starter button begin smoking and getting hot. I have rebuilt the starter, replaced the starter button, though I am faced with the same dilema. I recall when I had a sand rail it had a 6 volt starter and 12 volt battery. The starter would turn the engine very fast. However, you could not keep the starter going very long as the starter would burn. So, what if I replaced the 12 volt starter with a 6 volt starter. Would the 6 volt starter turn this engine faster? Something has to be done; for I cannot continue to rebuild the starter, and replace the starter button, plus I want to get the engine started. ANYONE HAVE KNOWLEDGE, EXPERIENCE IN AND AS TO THE ABOVE, AND WOULD YOU PLEASE INFORM ME? Thanx
jacksprat
p.s. If anyone needs information on replacing rear oil seal on a TD 9; let me know -I can help/
what do you think AJ
 
That sounds like there is an overload,are you sure the decompression lever is working right,is the diesel shut off,take out the spark plugs and wind it over see the engine is free and everything connected to it,usually when electric things heat up it is because of overload,faulty unit,bad connections or poor wiring.
AJ
 
What the other poster is referring to by removing the spar plugs, are you sure you do not have a bad bearing or something like the hydraulic pump dragging or loading your starter. May not be the starter at all but something causing an overload. You say you attempted to start on gas, does it turn over fast enough when you try that. Did it run on gas before you removed the engine? Need more information, doubt that it is going to be the starter if you had it rebuilt. Maybe cables or connection. Let us know what you find
 
Thanx AJ for your speedy response. The decompression leveler. When I pull the handle for the gas, the flapper moves freely. When returning the handle the flapper stays a second then it clicks and returns to its position. I understand there are two valves that open to decompress. I do not know how to find out if the valves are opening. I am going out now and pull the plugs to make that check. I am in tune with you in and as to an overload. I see no reason for an overload due to connections; battery, starter. The starter has recently been rebuilt. The positive cable from battery to starter button has a metal flex housing over it. I am not comfortable with that, though I don't think it is my problem. If the two mentioned valves were not opening, then I could understand diesel compression would cause overload. I have a Perkins 4 cylinder in my dodge pickup. It takes a strong battery to turn it over. However, it starts with the first piston coming to the top of cylinder. The only thing that could happen is to drain the battery, the battery getting hot.
I will let you know the results of pulling the plugs.
Thanx again AJ
 
When I purchased the TD 9; the starter was not good. The owner said he had it rebuilt. I removed the starter at that time, and had it rebuilt. With starter in place it would turn the engine a few times then the starter would get hot -smoke. When the TD 9 was later at my property I started it many times -on gas, then to diesel, exactly as it is done. The TD 9 started immediately so the starter did not have to turn the engine much. After sitting a few days I observed the starter was getting hot much quicker along with smoking and the starter button always got hot. I have pulled the engine since, to replace the rear oil seal, and placed the fly wheel, clutch, pressure plate. At that time I turned the engine, with a bar, and the engine turned seemingly okay. Starting the engine, the engine turned slowly a few turns and the starter begin smoking and the starter button was very hot. However, the battery, cables, were not hot or over warm. Today I ordered a starter button 26.00 Napa -internet 11.95 (pick up tomorrow-68 mile trip)
Later today I pulled the intake to find that the two butterfly plates work well. So, there is obviously an overload. Could the starter be the wrong starter? Did the TD 9 50 thru 53 have a 6 volt system? The cables, connections are all good. Just the positive cable has a metal tube over it; which, I do not like, though I doubt that is causing a problem. I have see TD 9's on youtube and they turn over easily and for long times. Well, where do we go from here? It did start a bit faster on gas, then starting on diesel.
 
Hello AJ; Have not pulled plugs, have to replace starter button. I did pull the intake and the butterfly's work good.
So, there is an overload. Something pulling the starter or a wrong type starter. The starter was rebuilt by the owner. I had the starter rebuilt by professional people and paid accordingly.
Before placing the engine I turned it over with a bar and it turned o.k. by me. I think the correct starter, and that would end the problem. However, what starter goes in the TD 9 50 thru 53?
 
The way the Gas/Diesel engine works is each cylinder has two conventional valves,inlet and exhaust operated by the camshaft,also each cylinder has a third manual operated decompression valve,when you manually open those valves it makes the combustion area bigger lowering the compression for the engine to run on gas,start the engine run it a bit to warm it up and change over to diesel by closing the valves and increasing the compression,opening the fuel shut off,the butterfly flaps are to direct the air intake from through carburettor for the gas or to block it when on diesel,in other words they block one and open the other,it was a 12V starter that was fitted and I think your problem is with the starter motor,you need to know the engine turns over freely and anything connected to it like a winch or CCU is not dragging it down,if you have a decent set of jumper cables,clip them on over the original cables to bypass them,cross the starter manually and see if it turns over properly if not the starter is suspect #1.
AJ
 

AJ
First I pulled the intake; there in the intake are two butter fly plates. In the head there are one large hole to the right and to the left is a smaller hole, with some kind of small metal piece; which, I was unable to define. In any event the butter fly plates worked good. I assembled the intake and the gas part works well.
Today I retrieved the new starter button, attached it to the dozer, connected the battery, starter cable. After removing the spark plugs I started the engine. The engine turned faster and for a much longer time before the starter getting warm. Replacing the spark plugs, I gave a small shot of either to the intake. Opening the valve for gas I pushed the starter button; the engine turned a bit better, the engine started after the first piston came to it top position upon firing.
I shut the engine off, and later attempted to start it -first with gas; which, I forgot to add gas, so it would not start. The starter turned the engine a bit better -not much- and the starter got hot, the starter button was smoking. After turning on the gas valve the engine started immediately. I let the engine idle for an hour, drove the dozer down my 300 foot drive -grading the road- and then coming back up the hill, shutting the engine down. Looking underneath the dozer there was around 5 drops of oil. I guess that is a good sign that the new rear oil seal is doing its job, plus the other new gaskets.
AJ, I think -like you- the starter, though rebuilt, is not good.
There is nothing left. I will, tomorrow, put cables on the battery, and connect the positive cable to the starter and the negative to ground. See what happens.
The other thing; the engine still runs on three cylinders. Perhaps I have a leaking head gasket, or a cracked head -good grief. I like the engine though, it sounds good. Just not much power with three cylinders.
What part of England are you from? My grandmothers folks came to the U.S. from Wales. Their name was Parks. Hard working farmers, and very strong constitution. Met some people from Kent, England. They told me each year they hold a re-actment of Vietnam -of sorts. I sent them a copy of my book; Vietnam, my personal experience.
 
Forgot one other thing. when loosening the small bleed bolt on each injector, the diesel would come out and there would be a sudden drop in the rpm; except the cylinder at the rear. When bleeding with the bolt there was no difference in the rpm. Have any thoughts in and as to this. Could that be valve leaking. When i open the bleed bolt, there is no blue/white smoke. When I close the bleed bolt there is blue/white smoke. What do you think AJ?
 
You do not try to start it on diesel,you do not use ether,if you are trying to start it on diesel the cylinders are getting filled with diesel which will stop the gas from igniting when you try it on gas,if there is no drag on the engine the starter is not turning it fast enough,have the starter looked at again,the small screw on top of the injectors is not a bleed screw,it carries the leak return,when you put the engine back in and bled the fuel system,filters first and finish with the pump that is all that is needed.
AJ
 
First, I do not understand about the third valve in each cylinder and manually operating them. All I know and see is the rod through the intake, with the flapper, and the butterfly plates -two- operating off the rod in the intake -nothing else. So, you have lost me in and as to manually operating the third valve in each cylinder. I always start the engine in gas mode. I use just a bit of either so as the engine will start before the starter gets hot and the starter button gets hot, smokes and melts. This works. Looking to the rear of the engine; on each injector, right side, there is a small bolt. When loosening that bolt diesel fuel spurts out. When you close the small bolt the diesel fuel stops. This is what I mean. When loosening the small bolt one cylinder at a time, the rpm drops considerably. When closing the small bolt, the rpm returns to it original rpm -except for the fourth cylinder. There on the fourth cylinder, the rpm does not change one bit. There is a problem; and why the engine is operating on three cylinders, I think. I think perhaps the reason the starter/button starter gets hot is due to the starter button itself - not enough amps. The starter button I am using is 100 amps.
 
The compression altering valves are inside the cylinder,you cannot see them,the butterfly valve you are referring to alter the air intake from gas to diesel,you have to block the diesel intake and open the gas intake for the cylinder to suck in the gas air mixture,when the diesel starts the diesel intake is opened and the gas shut,the tractor has a decompression lever that has to be pulled out,I forget the exact procedure for starting it on gas as its 50 years since I seen one,hold the decompressor lever out the next time you try it,you are correct about the injector bleed screws,we did not have that type here they used Simms instead,try to get it to start on gas and then after you get the diesel running it may clear it self.
AJ
 
Do you have a votlmeter? If not find one. What is the voltage at the battery when you try to start the tractor? Then check it at the starter while trying to start it. Report back with the 2 readings. J.
 
O.K. Your getting there. IF as you say the engine does not change when you bleed the rear cylinder it is definitely not firing but don't get too excited. That MAY just be a bad injector and not require going into the engine. I Am also inclined to think you may be on right tractor with the starter switch. What they are saying about the third valve.. Each cylinder has a small valve that does the change over to diesel. That operation is automatic as you move the fuel control there in the dash. Normally does not give trouble. However I would not continue to crank the gas part with aid of either. Should start as a gas engine without either. Those things were notorious for cracking the heads without the use of either and all adding the either would do is increase the chances of cracking the head.
 
Schwiebert: Today I attempted to start the engine. I gave it a short burst of either -not much. Pulled the lever out and pushed the starter button. after two turns the engine started on gas. After a couple of minutes I switched to diesel -no problem. The starter and button did not have time to get hot. I drove the Dozer for an hour -grading, and as I was grading the blade brought the engine down and it stopped. I attempted to start it by gas. The engine turned three or four times and the starter button was hot and beginning to smoke. Next, I had nothing. I pushed the starter button and nothing. Checked everything and pushing the starter button again it stuck.
Dismayed, I pulled the starter and the starter button. Using another battery I connected a cable from the battery to the starter button; from the starter button I connected a cable to the starter. I took a cable to the ground of the battery and grounded the starter that was laying near by. When I pushed the starter button the starter turned, though turned slowly. when I checked the battery voltage it had drained considerably. When I purchased this TD 9 1950-1953, the owner told me he had the starter rebuilt. When we tried to start the engine it turned very slowly. I took the starter and had it rebuilt. When I put the starter in with a new starter button, it did the same thing -turned slowly; the starter got hot smoked and the starter button was very hot and smoking also. If I could get the engine to start on the first or second turn I was o.k. However, that doesn't always happen. So, now what to do? Why does this starter not turn the engine fast?; and why does the starter button get very hot and smoke? When I had the engine out -replacing the rear oil seal- I checked the engine by turning it with a bar before putting the engine back. The engine turned o.k. to me. There was no hard spot; it turned evenly and freely, though not loose. Tomorrow, I will reinstall the button and starter and take the readings. Thank you for the taking time.
 
JM: I just posted for Scwiebert, you may read it if you will. I think I may have a bad injector; have you ever removed one?
Sometimes the injector would kick in, though I think it had something to do with the how much water was in the engine. I had tried cleaners -diesel clean. The starter button is confusing. It would get hot before the starter did. I don't know where to go with this; like I don't want to keep rebuilding starter and buying new starter buttons. Thanx JM I remain appreciative
 
Thanx AJ I posted latest developments, so you may read them and give what you think. Thanx AJ My dilemma is increasing. What about a new starter with a solenoid mounted with the starter and a electric switch?; would that work?
 
Well its good news you got it going,now you know it's down to the starting issue,use the volt meter like it was suggested,I mentioned before the use of jumper cables to by pass the starter button,protect the threads on the starter terminal,(screw on another nut),clip one cable to the starter body and the other end to the battery ground,clip the other cable to the other battery post and with the controls set to gas start tip the cable on to the starter terminal and see the result,if it turns at the same slow speed remove the spark plugs and turn it over again,if you hear the compression blowing out the decompression valves are working,if no compression blows out the valves are not working,hold up on the starter till you are sure its needed.
AJ
 
I couldn't get it started again because the button stuck, or the starter wouldn't start, so I removed the starter and button. I sat the starter on the inner fender well of my dodge truck. Connected a cable from the battery positive post to the starter post. I used a meter on the battery which read 12.26 I attached a cable from the battery -negative- to the metal part of the starter. The starter barely kicked out and it ran rather slow. While operating I read the meter on the battery. It read 10.58 This was in 20 seconds. I removed the cables for they were very,very, hot. However, the starter wasn't even warm. When the starter was in the tractor and the plugs had been removed, the engine turned a bit faster. I do not remember if the compression was blowing out, though I think so.
Plus when the engine started it started immediately. I think when the starter was rebuilt it was not done correctly, and didn't work that well from the start, and went bad from there. It seems I should put another starter, with solenoid, and key ignition from a Ford truck. What do you think?
 
it is very easy to tell if the small gas valves are opening. if you leave it in diesel mode the cranking will be slow and that is a good start to make a starter or cables hot. you will find out in a hurry where your problems are. if in gas mode the engine will spin over fine... that's if the electrical end is in good shape, such as starter and batt and cables.
second... you can remove valve cover and watch the small valves being pushed down when decompression is moved.
and third... these engines must start on gas and run for about a minute to warm the combustion chamber so that the diesel will fire right off when switched over. ether is a no no. you can develop broken rings from that junk. ihc developed a very good system here and it works very well when everything is kept in tune.
I have a bunch of these gas starts and they do start very easy. its kind of a dying art as not very many people even know how to start them. just as the old two cyl. J.D.s pup,pup,pup working in the field that you could hear for miles on a quite evening.
and ooh... you keep saying the starter is rebuilt... but if it is getting hot it is no darn good.
 
also forgot to say that if the valves are open you can check the compression on gas side. if the valves are closed you will have zero compression , a good thing.
 
I am confused. You report that being on the gas side I can check the compression -with the valves open. With the valves closed there would be no compression. Wouldn't it be the opposite?
In gas mode the engine cranked slow;the starter/push button becoming hot. When is gas mode the engine turned a tiny bit -if any- more, and the starter becomes hot, the starter button more hot. Sounds like this starter, like you say is no good. Aome people are saying put a solenoid on the starter using the starter button in between with a fuse. They recomend a ford solenoid; don't know why?
Thanx
 
I couldn't get it started again because the button stuck, or the starter wouldn't start, so I removed the starter and button. I sat the starter on the inner fender well of my dodge truck. Connected a cable from the battery positive post to the starter post. I used a meter on the battery which read 12.26 I attached a cable from the battery -negative- to the metal part of the starter. The starter barely kicked out and it ran rather slow. While operating I read the meter on the battery. It read 10.58 This was in 20 seconds. I removed the cables for they were very,very, hot. However, the starter wasn't even warm. When the starter was in the tractor and the plugs had been removed, the engine turned a bit faster. I do not remember if the compression was blowing out, though I think so.
Plus when the engine started it started immediately. I think when the starter was rebuilt it was not done correctly, and didn't work that well from the start, and went bad from there. It seems I should put another starter, with solenoid, and key ignition from a Ford truck. What do you think?
 
(quoted from post at 18:28:33 10/18/14) Do you have a votlmeter? If not find one. What is the voltage at the battery when you try to start the tractor? Then check it at the starter while trying to start it. Report back with the 2 readings. J.
couldn't get it started again because the button stuck, or the starter wouldn't start, so I removed the starter and button. I sat the starter on the inner fender well of my dodge truck. Connected a cable from the battery positive post to the starter post. I used a meter on the battery which read 12.26 I attached a cable from the battery -negative- to the metal part of the starter. The starter barely kicked out and it ran rather slow. While operating I read the meter on the battery. It read 10.58 This was in 20 seconds. I removed the cables for they were very,very, hot. However, the starter wasn't even warm. When the starter was in the tractor and the plugs had been removed, the engine turned a bit faster. I do not remember if the compression was blowing out, though I think so.
Plus when the engine started it started immediately. I think when the starter was rebuilt it was not done correctly, and didn't work that well from the start, and went bad from there. It seems I should put another starter, with solenoid, and key ignition from a Ford truck. What do you think?
 
You seem to be confused about the compression,when you select gas mode you manually push 4 valves open in the cylinder head,the valves opens to a small chamber,that chamber has the spark plug screwed into it,when the plugs are out and the valves are open the engine turned over compression comes out the plug holes,if you move it to diesel mode the valves will close and block the compression from getting into those chambers and nothing comes out the plug holes,in my neck of the woods we have all starters repaired and would not dream of buying new,same with alternators,generators and fuel injection equipment,if you look on ebay there are lots of starter switches,but one has to be careful to get one that is for a starter and not a hooter,with starter push or pull switches it is important to pull or push them hard so they make good contact,it is one advantage of a solenoid type that it closed hard,if switches are not closed properly they will arc and heat,open your starter and see all the brushes are free,if you have air blow out the dust.
AJ
 
thanx for being more clear. I understand better. And I think when I pulled the plugs, the gas mode, diesel mode, was neutral -not in position. I will perform the operation you described; however, I don't have a starter that will work efficient. The starter has been rebuilt at least two times. I didn't want to take the starter apart. I had this starter rebuilt in March of this year and have used it little. I am weary of paying a high price to have it rebuilt and have it fail, and have to purchase a new one if that is possible. The place I had it rebuilt is over a hundred miles away. I am learning some people have changed to a solenoid on the starter with a key switch or button, and wondered why.
 
first of all you have to verify the starter is ok. I still think it is junk. if the starter is dragging everthing will get hot right to the battery.
as for checking compression... it can only be done on the gas side in gas mode with the little valves open! when you close these valves it decreases the combustion chamber so the compression will increase to burn the diesel.
a check to see if the little valves are closed and seating ... you can remove the spark plugs while the engine is running on diesel and you should have no compression blowing out the plug hole.
to check compression on the diesel side it has to be done from the injectors. and it will be a lot higher than the gas readings, like about 5 times higher.
 
(quoted from post at 20:17:08 10/20/14) first of all you have to verify the starter is ok. I still think it is junk. if the starter is dragging everthing will get hot right to the battery.
as for checking compression... it can only be done on the gas side in gas mode with the little valves open! when you close these valves it decreases the combustion chamber so the compression will increase to burn the diesel.
a check to see if the little valves are closed and seating ... you can remove the spark plugs while the engine is running on diesel and you should have no compression blowing out the plug hole.
to check compression on the diesel side it has to be done from the injectors. and it will be a lot higher than the gas readings, like about 5 times higher.
The starter is junk. When I checked the battery with meter I got 12.26 and when I connected from battery to Starter and starter is turning slow; I checked the battery and it read 10.58 In twenty seconds. And I removed the cables that were very hot, and the starter was little warm. Also, this starter has been rebuilt two times that I know of -maybe more. So, I am looking for another starter. And I am not finding one. I perhaps could find a used one; however, it would be wise to rebuild it, and that would be paying twice. Once I get a starter, I may preform the suggested tasks. Plus I will install a solenoid between the starter and the manual switch, with a fuse.
Is there a puller to pull an injector? How do I pull the injector? I used cleaners and when the dozer operated a spell the injector would work; however, the dozer sat for over a month and now it does not work.
 
ihc td tractors (all) first year was 1940 and was
12v negative ground. starter will turn either
polarity however the wrong way will make it very
hot. they did not make 12v batteries so they had
room in the box on the fender or in the tray under
the seat for two batteries.......just a thought!
 
(quoted from post at 18:30:46 10/18/14) O.K. Your getting there. IF as you say the engine does not change when you bleed the rear cylinder it is definitely not firing but don't get too excited. That MAY just be a bad injector and not require going into the engine. I Am also inclined to think you may be on right tractor with the starter switch. What they are saying about the third valve.. Each cylinder has a small valve that does the change over to diesel. That operation is automatic as you move the fuel control there in the dash. Normally does not give trouble. However I would not continue to crank the gas part with aid of either. Should start as a gas engine without either. Those things were notorious for cracking the heads without the use of either and all adding the either would do is increase the chances of cracking the head.
Do you know hwere I may obtain a puller to pull the injector??
 
(quoted from post at 19:54:32 10/22/14)
(quoted from post at 18:30:46 10/18/14) O.K. Your getting there. IF as you say the engine does not change when you bleed the rear cylinder it is definitely not firing but don't get too excited. That MAY just be a bad injector and not require going into the engine. I Am also inclined to think you may be on right tractor with the starter switch. What they are saying about the third valve.. Each cylinder has a small valve that does the change over to diesel. That operation is automatic as you move the fuel control there in the dash. Normally does not give trouble. However I would not continue to crank the gas part with aid of either. Should start as a gas engine without either. Those things were notorious for cracking the heads without the use of either and all adding the either would do is increase the chances of cracking the head.
Do you know hwere I may obtain a puller to pull the injector??
I removed the core of the injector. Removing the two smaller bolts; the fuel line, threading out the top piece. Next I worked the nut part of the tube -back and forth- and removed it, along with the inner working parts. Much easier than pulling the entire injector. The spring part was carbon build up. I could see where that would be a problem. Thanx to everyone. I also found a person that is rebuilding the starter -happy day.
 
Well to start off check the polarity and make sure that it is negative ground.
What kind of starter do you have, I assume because it is a crawler it is activated by steeping on a rod which hits the button on the starter I have a HIC 41 T9 with the same set up just gas. But I also have a 46 TD9 in an Adams motor grader which has a remote starter button on the dash.
I took the starter off the 41 to fix the bendix on the 46. I had to swap out the armature and bendix. I have rebut many starters over the years and what you have on here is a bad armature it has been bent or the bushings are gone either way the starter needs replaced. The ONLY other thing it could be is the brushes are worn out and grounding out, new brushes are easy to replace. However, if you let the brushes ground out it can cause the armature to bind and start grounding out too.
Either one or all of these problems will cause the starter to heat up rapidly.
Personal I think is a bent armature, and as it spins it is touching the fielding coils. But start cheaply by looking at the brushes first by undoing the cover band on the back of the starter. the brushes should be about 3/4 inches long and look for any grounding wires
GOOD LUCK
Fat Dan
 

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