Case 350B Water Loss

I recently purchase subject crawler and am just getting familiar with the machine. The first time I used it I noticed it overheating. It took 8 qts of water after cool down. Next use I watched the temp very carefully and it used more water. It uses water all the time. Hard to see the radiator and water pump, but they seem dry and wiggling the fan doesn't produce any free play. Last outing I noticed white liquid coming out around the area of the torque converter/hydrostatic clutch, but nothing from the area of the belly pan. Is the clutch cooled by the radiator coolant? I have a parts book and just won an e-Bay bid on a service manual (not here yet). The Case Service Manager in Salem informs me they hardly ever see them in their shop because they are such well built machines. Can someone more familiar with this little beast provide insight as to where the coolant is going? Or, do I have two separate issues? Gary

The 350B is equipped with the Borg Warner power shuttle,the shuttle fluid is cooled in the bottom section of the radiator,if it was the case that the coolant was leaking into to the shuttle fluid that could only happen when the engine was stopped,when the engine is running the shuttle fluid pressure going through the cooler would be higher than the coolant pressure and the fluid would leak into the coolant and empty the shuttle,overfill the rad pushing the coolant out the filler and resulting in no drive,check the shuttle fluid level,brake on,tranny in high gear,shuttle in neutral,engine running on low idle,pull the stick and see what's there,the flywheel housing has a drain plug at half past six you will have to go underneath to access it,remove it and see what comes out,have you checked the engine oil,check it as it is a likely place for the coolant to go,if the shuttle fluid and engine oil is normal the coolant loss must be external,is there a cab heater or,check the coolant for signs of fluid,does the exhaust throw out water,check that lot and see how you go.
AJ

(quoted from post at 03:57:08 09/17/14) The 350B is equipped with the Borg Warner power shuttle,the shuttle fluid is cooled in the bottom section of the radiator,if it was the case that the coolant was leaking into to the shuttle fluid that could only happen when the engine was stopped,when the engine is running the shuttle fluid pressure going through the cooler would be higher than the coolant pressure and the fluid would leak into the coolant and empty the shuttle,overfill the rad pushing the coolant out the filler and resulting in no drive,check the shuttle fluid level,brake on,tranny in high gear,shuttle in neutral,engine running on low idle,pull the stick and see what's there,the flywheel housing has a drain plug at half past six you will have to go underneath to access it,remove it and see what comes out,have you checked the engine oil,check it as it is a likely place for the coolant to go,if the shuttle fluid and engine oil is normal the coolant loss must be external,is there a cab heater or,check the coolant for signs of fluid,does the exhaust throw out water,check that lot and see how you go.
AJ

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Thank you for that detailed response. I will get busy checking those things and get back to you. I did note that the engine needs to be revved up a bit to get it to go forward. OK in reverse. I suspect I will find the problem in the shuttle area. Gary

Thank you for that detailed response. I will get busy checking those things and get back to you. I did note that the engine needs to be revved up a bit to get it to go forward. OK in reverse. I suspect I will find the problem in the shuttle area.
Gary[/quote]

Got her up on some RR ties tonight and crawled underneath. Shuttle area wet with white liquid. Opened up the plate by brake pedal and found entire dipstick coated with white goo. Not a mechanic, but sure looks like water mixed with some kind of oil. Don't even need the dipstick because can see it about 2" from the top of tube. So, water disappearing from radiator, shuttle overflowing with water based goop. I'd say mystery is nearly solved. I did find the schematic for the shuttle in the parts book. Only place the two fluids come close to one another is in the bottom of the radiator. Right? If that is the case the problem should be in the oil cooler in the bottom of the radiator. So, until my service manual arrives (presuming you agree this is where the problem likely exists), give me the quick and dirty on removing the radiator. Out the front? Belly pan removed or left on? And, how do we clean up the mess in the shuttle? Think there was originally some antifreeze in the radiator when it came home to me. And, thank you for your assistance in diagnosing this issue. Gary

To stop the posts repeating clear the panel of all text before you type,well you clearly have water in the shuttle and the only place they can mix is is in the rad,what I can't understand is why the shuttle fluid is not going the other way,is the rad water clean,if the water is clean and oil free I doubt if the trouble is there,I cannot remember if there were a freeze plug in the flywheel area,take out the plug on the bottom of the flywheel housing,let out what is in there,it is usually empty but a little oil is normal,after its drained fill the rad and see if the water comes out,if so its more than likely that a freeze plug is leaking or worse that the block is cracked,someone else will know if there are freeze plugs in that area,you need to drain the shuttle of all that goo,the early shuttle oil was ATF but now its Case TCH or any generic HyTrans equivalent.
AJ

OK, I will do that. Not sure I found the drain plug when I was under there, but will look again. Could the water from radiator get there either by lower radiator leak between shuttle cooler OR a freeze plug? And, if so, how would you know which? I seem to recall when I started this there was some oily scum at the top of the radiator, but I have been pouring water in prior to every use and it is clean when it reaches the top. Have not checked it at end of use because it is, of course, hot. The oil is clean on the dipstick and presents no evidence of water. Let it NOT be a cracked block. Gary

Check the rad for oil in the water if its there have the rad off and take it to be repaired,usually the oil comes to the top,probably looking like custard.
AJ

Attempted to remove the plug under the flywheel tonight. The belly pan is caved in upward reducing the clearance and it further appears the plug is not a threaded version depicted in the parts book, but rather a plain plug JB Welded to the guard. Maybe later? There is NO WATER on the dipstick. I looked in the radiator again and there is the custard stuff on the underside of the radiator cap. AJ, I am just about convinced the problem is in the radiator. The person I purchased it from said the radiator was off when he picked it up from a buddy. He checked it and installed it, so it may be someone had already diagnosed the problem, but had not fixed same. Unless you think it is a move in the wrong direction I am convinced enough to pull the radiator. Does it come out the front? What has to come off to get it loose? Thanks again for your help. Gary

Take the two shuttle hoses off the the bottom of the rad and loop them together,fill the rad with water and see if it comes out where the hoses connect to,if it does get the rad off and repaired.
AJ

Ok AJ, have been busy with other matters, but recently loosened those hyd lines from bottom of radiator and added water. Came immediately out of the right fitting so pulled radiator and took it to my repair guy who agrees with the diagnosis. Gonna be spendy because core is toast as well, but half cost of a new radiator from Case. BTW, contrary to seller's statement that radiator has not been off in a very long time. Had to get my 3/4" impact wrench out to get the rusted bolts loose to the attaching hardware (1/2" wouldn't do it).

So, now to deal with a power shuttle filled half with water and half oily custard. Talked with service manager at local Case dealership and he told me they use a "filter cart". Well great! We all have one of those in our shop I guess. Would it be a good idea to blow air through the lines and then put a coupe of quarts in the shuttle, start it up and shift from fwd to reverse a few times before letting it drain out? Would you recommend to change the filter each time I propose to do this? If there is a better way, please tell me. I have the manual and have been reading up on changing the shuttle oil. Not understanding why they say to remove the filter housing? There are bolts through the shuttle guard and very stiff hyd lines, which I don't think would want to remove every time the filter was changed. Manuals do not cover the disaster I have right now. Correct me if wrong, but I think I will have to remove the draw bar, shuttle guard and probably the engine shield (bent up toward torque converter/flywheel housing). Hope you are entertained by these amateur mechanic questions. Really appreciate your help here. Gary

I can't remember in detail what has to be removed but I do remember that just the filter top came off to change the element and that is all I would remove,it is a right SOB to get every trace of water out of oil,leave it draining for as long as you can,fill it with new oil and change it after its done a bit of work,see in your manual if it says how to drain the torque converter unit,some could be drained by removing the plug on the bottom of the bellhousing,bring the torque drain around by turning the engine by hand,that's if it has one,it it has one remove it and let it drain.
Good luck
AJ

Just a thought. Parker, Donaldson and a number of others sell water absorbing filter elements. They [b:a6dacb5603]may[/b:a6dacb5603] have offer an element that may fit into the existing housing, if not purchase a complete filter. Link to the Donaldson is , https://donaldson.com/en/ih/support/datalibrary/064988.pdf.

While they may be on the expensive side [b:a6dacb5603]they will [/b:a6dacb5603]remove water in the oil. I design them into all of our test stands, Donaldson is the preferred brand.

Great idea. Thank you. I will look them up right away. Gary

Thanks AJ. I have removed the drawbar, shuttle guard and engine guard. Have a friend with a huge hydraulic press to take some of the wrinkles out of the guards and make the holes line up to match bottom of frame where they attach. Next up is more pressure washing underneath prior to the shuttle draining process. I will be able to reach and remove the drain plug from the torque converter now that it is more accessible. We are just now into the rainy season here in Western Oregon so progress will be intermittent. Gary