Bob/Ont re/ 931b nightmare!!

I posted a few days ago about pulling the starter in my 931B but never got a response so I'll try again. First off somebody at Cat should have their head examined.

Pulled the belly pan off to get at the bottom. I got all the bolts out that hold the starter in thinking that was the hard part. Boy was I wrong! The bottom and side bolts came out easy. The top bolt I had to turn a little at time with a wrench cause I couldn't get 2 fingers in there to turn it. OK, starter is unbolted so I'll just slide it back so I can drop it out the bottom. I took the clamps for the oil cooler hoses off and used a strap to tie them out of the way. The starter slides back but can't come out because the motor mount is in the way. Took the top rubber donut off the motor mount, still wouldn't come out so I took the end cap off the starter thinking I'll have just a little more room. Voila! got the starter back enough to get the drive section out of the bell housing.

Now I can just tilt the starter and pull it out the bottom. Nope, need a little more clearance so I removed the relay on the starter, loosened the other motor mount and jacked up the engine 1/4"-3/8" to get a little more clearance. I heard the starter fall so figured I could wiggle it out. Nope it's now wedged in there. Maybe it could come out the top, if I can ever get it loose, but that would entail taking the lines off the hyd. pump as well as the hyd. pump itself. My machine has a bigger pump than normal because of the backhoe. Probably have to unbolt the motor mount from the engine too. &%$#@%$#!!! Then I have to think about putting the &*#@%^# thing back in when it's fixed. I came home in disgust and didn't even put any tools away.

The more I think about it, the more I think I'll have to pull the engine to replace the starter. That involves pulling the engine and transmission complete that weighs about 1700lbs. Have to drain the trans., hyd. oil, rad, etc., etc., etc. It's a big job on a 931B.

Oh and I also had a rubber gasket about 1/8" thick fall from somewhere. It's oval about 2" long and 1" wide with 3/8" holes at each end and an oval hole about 3/4" in the middle. Any idea where this could be from? I thought maybe where the relay bolts on but it's too small and the relay doesn't use a gasket.

Sorry for the long post. I needed to vent. Who would have thought pulling the track frames and replacing the undercarriage is a simple job compared to replacing a starter!

I was just responding to your other post as you were typing this one up. Sounds like getting your starter off is akin to doing the alternator on my wife's '02 PT Cruiser. The manual begins that procedure by saying jack the car up and remove the right, front tire. once the axel and several other pieces are removed you can then get to the alternator as it comes out the bottom, regardless of how it looks.

I've pulled a lot of starters, and know I've done a few 955's but I honestly can't remember ever pulling the starter out of a 931, especially one with the oversized pump. Still, I have never pulled one out of a loader of that type (ie front engine) where the starter came out the bottom. Usually the width of the block, where it attaches to the oil pan, and the width of the frame, leave way too small of a space to get the starter too.

That said, in your current predicament it sounds like pulling the pump and lines are going to be about your only choice. One thing I have found that helps me. Get yourself a piece of small diameter sire rope and braid, or use crimps, to put loops in each end to make a small sling. Now slip the sling through the hole between the front of the solenoid and the face of the starter. Then use a come-a-long, or whatever, to help lift the starter out of the hole. You'd be amazed what angles you can get, and what you can do to wiggle one out of a hole like that when your not having to support the weigh of the starter manually. I know it sounds like the ropes, etc might get in the way, and sometimes they can, but typically the advantages far out weight the disadvantages.

Ok, I went to check my books before posting, but unfortunately the only thing I've got is a parts manual for a 931B, and a service manual for two different 955's that still had pony motors. Wish I could be of more help.

Hey again, I just caught that you do have a 931B. Bad as I hate to say it, looking at the parts book the starter looks like it will jump right out and all you need to do is snap your fingers to get it to jump for you......Guess that's why they are just parts manuals.....LOL.

If Bob doesn't pop up before hand with an BTDT answer, I'll check the parts book tomorrow for you and see if it has a pic of, or anything I think would look like, the gasket your saying dropped on you.

I was just talking to a guy on the phone when I had another idea. Maybe if I take the other motor mount off, I can twist the engine to the side a little to have enough room? I think I'll also have to take the fan off so I can try jack the engine a little higher. I have some tie down straps that work good for a sling.

I'd have to look at the book, but if the front of your engine is mounted like the front end of most CATs I've seen, it's not going to move without taking out one of the front mount bolts and loosing the other. I say that because the typical front mount is tied to the front of the engine with, for want of a better description, a piece made like the dampner, with a hard inner ring pressed or bolted to the engine, and an outer ring tied to the mount, and a rubber ring in between. If you try to move it too much you take the chance of tearing the rubber, or worse. Especially if it's as deteriorated as most of that age are if they have never been changed.

Bad as I hate to say it, I think your best bet will be to pull the pump and lines and make a hole big enough to get it out.

Stick welding

This won't help your problem, but sometimes you run into a VERY odd exception.

We have a 1981 Alfa Romeo Alfetta - which is the ONLY vehicle that I've yet met that looks like the manufacturer thought about the mechanics down the line. There is always just enough room, though you might need the workshop manual to find how.

On starters. It is an all alloy engine and the starter has a third lug on the brush end - I'm told that if you decide that isn't needed you'll likely crack the bell housing.

It looks like you have to take out an engine mount to get the starter out. BUT the third mount is a lug off a cap that bolts over the brush end of the starter. And, if you loosen the nuts holding it, there is just enough room to swing the starter out without removing the engine mount.

My learning curve on this one summarised - Alfa does any number of things differently, doesn't mean they're crazy. Their front hub setup should have been mandatory for ease of servicing the bearings.

SW,
You surely have described a nightmare!! And I thought finding and getting to the starter on a '65 HD3 Allis was tough. Have to remove the fuel tank and hopefully be able to pull the starter out of the housing. Wish you luck!
Mr. T. Minnesota

Motor mounts are relatively new. I had to replace one of them because of a tiny diesel leak at the lift pump. The rubber was eaten away and just crumbled. Two big rubber donuts with a bushing in the middle. The mount bolted to the engine has about a 2 1/2" hole tapered to fit the donuts, top and bottom. If I lift the engine up enough so the donuts aren't compressed, I could hopefully push it over a little bit to gain more clearance. I'm just leaving to go look at it again. &*%#@! thing!

Stickweld,
See I told having a bigger machine doesn't do any good if it doesn't run.lol. Our starter on the OC46 comes out real easy, even if it doesn't run, which it has never failed to do. We even used it again today.lol.

The gasket you are asking about, is it off the bendix cover? Thats the only thing that comes to mind on an oval gasket with two holes in each end.

Just had to rub it in a little.LOL.
Regards,
happy LOU.

When out today to see how many more curse words I could invent and it must have helped. I jacked the engine up slightly and then used about a 4' long aluminum pipe to try to pry the engine over a little bit. It worked and I saw the starter move. I managed to get the starter un-wedged and pulled it back up. Then I took the rotary barrel pump I had, from when I pulled the engine, and used it to pump all the hyd. oil out into a garbage can. Then I proceeded to take the suction, outlet and case drain lines off the hyd. pump. I was looking at the hyd. pump but thought I would see how much room I had with the lines out of the way. Somehow, I got the starter vertical and managed to pull it up and out without having to remove the pump. Oh happy day!

At least now I can get the starter fixed. It's a wet starter but there didn't seem to be a gasket where it bolts to the bell housing? It wasn't leaking though. Putting it back will no doubt present some other problems but I'll have to worry about that when the time comes. There was no signs of oil in the starter. It has some now from the pump dripping on the open end but it looks like there's a fair bit of corrosion in the starter. I think maybe water/melted snow was slowly getting in where the end cap butt's up. Maybe putting a bead of silicon around there would keep any moisture out?

The gasket is still a mystery. I didn't take anything apart that would use a gasket like that. It almost looks like a gasket for filling something with fluid but it's rubber. Maybe it's long been replaced? I don't know, it was just laying there after I had the belly pan out. There's a definite imprint on it but I can't think what it would be for. Maybe something electrical?