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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

Concern with my TD 6 1947-9...white smoke.....and

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thomaskd44

02-14-2014 22:02:02
70.166.117.212



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As I reported; the dozer crawler is operating. There are a few things of concern. One; I am not sure of the firing order. I have 1 -staring at the rear of the engine; and 3 -4- 2 -1-3-4-2 I don't know if the one cylinder is supposed to be at the rear or at the front, or if that is the correct firing order? The other concern, is the first cylinder at the rear. When the engine is operating, there is white smoke out the exhaust. When I loosen the fitting to the injector; there is no change in the R.P. M. and the white smoke vanishes. Connecting the fitting, the white smoke begins. So, I am confused as; is this because of firing order, or valve problem? Any help? Secondly, at the injector pump, there is a cap. Taking it off I see only a metal piece. Does diesel go into this opening?; is it suppose to be full? Something must go there for the cap being there. Any help is appreciative.
Tho

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jim warehime

02-24-2014 17:31:34
174.252.100.2



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 Re: Concern with my TD 6 1947-9...white smoke.....and in reply to thomaskd44, 02-14-2014 22:02:02  
Just a note here your crawler has the american bosch type A fuel pump when using a bosch fuel system you MUST use bosch injectors. The injectors look the same as the injectors used with the ih pump, but the fittings where the fuel line attach are different size same goes for the fuel lines from pump to injectors differenr size fitting then ih. The cap you speak of is the injection pump oil fill it should hold 3/8 pint of sae30 motor oil. Jim

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thomaskd44

02-17-2014 20:18:29
70.166.117.212



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 Re: Concern with my TD 6 1947-9...white smoke.....and in reply to thomaskd44, 02-14-2014 22:02:02  
thanx Al thanx for your help, input.



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AJB-830

02-17-2014 20:17:14
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 Re: Concern with my TD 6 1947-9...white smoke.....and in reply to jm., 02-14-2014 22:02:02  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Thomas, Took another look at that "T" plug. It sure looks like the oil check port on my MD. The bleed screws look different.

Al



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thomaskd44

02-17-2014 19:36:07
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 Re: Concern with my TD 6 1947-9...white smoke.....and in reply to thomaskd44, 02-14-2014 22:02:02  
what is the Farmall sites web address?

Thanx Al Thanx much.



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AJB-830

02-17-2014 20:02:35
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 Re: Concern with my TD 6 1947-9...white smoke.....and in reply to thomaskd44, 02-17-2014 19:36:07  
Thomas, The IH site is on this forum. Just go to the "Farmall & IH Tractors" right on this forum. I think you might find someone there who will knows what pump you have.

Also, if you have oil running out the back side of the engine, then that probably is a bad engine crankshaft oil seal. These MDs and TD6s are somewhat known for that problem. Mine drips a little but maybe not more than a 1/2 quart when run all day. Al

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thomaskd44

02-17-2014 19:31:54
70.166.117.212



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 Re: Concern with my TD 6 1947-9...white smoke.....and in reply to thomaskd44, 02-14-2014 22:02:02  
Those pictures were earlier pictures. I had to have the starter rebuilt, and I replaced the line from the glass trap to the line going to the tank. That is why you see the line disconnected.

In the picture you see the Cap -at top- to fill. In back is a plug that is the level of fill. Notice to the front and lower that T valve; like what is on the bottom of the carb, or you would see at the bottom of a radiator. Well, I think that is a bleed opening to bleed the injection pump of air. What do you think?

On my Perkins 4 cyl. diesel I have a tube at the injection pump, with a screw at the top of the tube. I turn the screw loose and diesel fuel squirts out -bleeding out any air. I f there was air in the injection pump; when tightening the screw, the engine operated better. As far as the lube part of the Perkins pump, there is another tube. When I had the pump off -for repair- and before putting the pump on I filled the part of the pump for lube, and then the pump compartment for the pump would seek it own level -too much it would go out the tube. With this pump it is not the case. However, I still think that so-called T valve may be a bleed off valve for air in the pump.

What do you think? And what about the oil streaming from the rear of the engine -on the right side -pump side??? Is that a rear seal problem?

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AJB-830

02-17-2014 20:10:49
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 Re: Concern with my TD 6 1947-9...white smoke.....and in reply to thomaskd44, 02-17-2014 19:31:54  
Thomas, I am only going from the pumps on my MD, 450-D, and 650-D that all have the "T" port to test how much motor oil in the pump case. But since you have a different pump, it is possible that port is a bleed screw. On the injection pumps I am familar with, the last bleed screw is on the final filter. There are none on the injection pump. Hopefully soneone on the IH forum will know more about the pump you have. Al

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thomaskd44

02-17-2014 17:20:31
70.166.117.212



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 Re: Concern with my TD 6 1947-9...white smoke.....and in reply to thomaskd44, 02-14-2014 22:02:02  
Went out on the north forty, to the dozer, and rearranged the spark plug wires and repositioned the gear at the mag. Started the start button, and the engine fired and operated good -real good. I drained the injection pump; a brown/yellow fluid came out. Kinda like diesel and a light oil perhaps. Taking off the cap and removing the level plug on the end, I filled the pump with oil until the oil began to come out the level opening. Replacing the level plug, screwing on the cap,I removed the valve cover. Brought the rear piston to the top and examined the clearances on the intake and the exhaust valves. Everything is okay. Replacing the valve cover, I started the engine on gas, and then went to diesel. Engine operated good, sounded good. There was still white smoke. I loosened the number 4 cylinder injector. There was no sudden drop in r.p.m. and the white smoke pretty much disappeared. Connecting the injector, the white smoke emitted as before mentioned. I had also put some transmission fluid in the diesel fuel tank. With the engine operating, I turned out the -T- valve at the injector pump -located at the lower front, to bleed off the pump. Much to my surprise; the oil that I had put in before was coming out the -T- valve. When I had turned out the -T- valve a few weeks past, diesel fuel had come out there for thinking I was bleeding the pump from any possible air. Are you guys sure that part with the cap at the rear of the pump is to be filled with oil???? I will make an injector test later.

One other thing I observed; above the starter on the right side -as you are looking at the dozer from the front, there was oil coming out. At the bottom of engine, same side, oil was streaming to the ground. Guess; real oil seal. What does anyone think?? When I first got this dozer; checking the oil stick, the oil on the stick was twice the distance of the full mark, and the oil was very, very, thin.
Tho







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Ian Beale

02-18-2014 22:15:28
123.211.231.74



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 Re: Concern with my TD 6 1947-9...white smoke.....and in reply to thomaskd44, 02-17-2014 17:20:31  
By that picture with the single fuel filter you have a Bosch injection pump, not the more usual IH one which has two fuel filters.

I"m not sure of the useage, but the Bosch was listed in the parts book and injection parts book that came with the 1952 TD6 our family had.



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AJB-830

02-17-2014 18:56:10
50.50.146.211



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 Re: Concern with my TD 6 1947-9...white smoke.....and in reply to thomaskd44, 02-17-2014 17:20:31  
Thomas, The Injection pump on your TD6 is quite different than on my MD. I have never seen this type of a pump. I still think that you put oil in through the cap up to the level of the test port that you call a "T". Now if your diesel pump is leaking bad, they will fill with diesel and diesel oil will run out the test port.

2nd, something seems very wrong with how your diesel lines are connected. The filter you see with the glass jar is a water trap. The line that is disconnected from it should be the input line that goes to your tank. It is open. Is this where you see diesel coming out? Apparently someone by-passed the water trap. I also assume you removed the starter.

Normally the output of the water trap would go to the 1st stage filter, than to tranfer pump on the injection pump, then to final filter, and then from the final filter back to the injection pump. But it looks like from what I can tell on yours, the line goes from the tank to the transfer pump, then to your single filter, than back to your injection pump. The open line you see coming off the water trap might be the return line back to tank. All these MD & TD6 diesels have a return line back to the tank.

Since I am not familiar with the pump on your TD6 and how it seems to be plumped up, not sure I can advise you what more to do. Maybe someone who knows this pump can give you some advice.

The other thing you could do is post these pictures on the Farmall site. There are probably more folks on that site that are more familar with IH gas start diesels and with your pump. Maybe they could explain why your plumbing is not as I would expect. Hopefully someone will know that pump and be able to help you.

Al

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thomaskd44

02-16-2014 18:09:13
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 Re: Concern with my TD 6 1947-9...white smoke.....and in reply to thomaskd44, 02-14-2014 22:02:02  
Okay Al. I am going to pursue these problems tomorrow and will post my results.

I understand the firing order, and the cylinder count from the radiator.
Number 1 wire at number 1 cylinder front radiator; moving counter clockwise, number 3 being at number 3 cylinder, 4 being at 4 cylinder and 2 being at 2 cylinder would be correct.

However, I have; moving counter clockwise, number 1 wire at number 4 cylinder, number 3 at number 3 cylinder, number 4 at number 2 cylinder, and number 2 at number 1 cylinder -moving the mag gear, and the engine fired and operated -strange indeed.

Thanx Al; will post tomorrow

Tho

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thomaskd44

02-16-2014 11:55:31
70.166.117.212



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 Re: Concern with my TD 6 1947-9...white smoke.....and in reply to thomaskd44, 02-14-2014 22:02:02  
Okay. Thanx to everyone. You have been most sincere, helpful, in my attempt to understand. And tomorrow I will go out on the north forty and apply what all of you have expressed.

In and as far as firing order: The cylinder count begins with number 1 at the front, and 2-3-4 following to the rear of the engine. And, the firing order being 1-3-4-2.
Now, I have number 1 wire, from the dist. cap, going to the last cylinder -at the rear- then number 3-4-2 (just the opposite) following to the front. I managed this by changing the gear at the end of the Magneto. Well, the engine starts, runs. Is this okay?; or does it have to be reversed, like you described?
Thanx in advance.

it helps to understand that I am of 'reverse polarity' and most things I do are in reverse of everyone else. it's funny huh.

however, actual

[b:94d811a25b][/b:94d811a25b]
This post was edited by thomaskd44 at 12:02:13 02/16/14.

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AJB-830

02-16-2014 17:14:59
50.50.146.211



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 Re: Concern with my TD 6 1947-9...white smoke.....and in reply to thomaskd44, 02-16-2014 11:55:31  
My quess is that if the engine starts good and doesn't miss or backfire, then your firing order is OK. Looks like all you did is move the plug wires one position and compenstated that by moving the timing gear in the mag. Once you get the tractor running as you want, then I would move the plug wires back so they are correct and change the gear in the mag to the correct position. Then next time you have to put in points or rotor it wouldn't be confusing. Al

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thomaskd44

02-15-2014 14:19:12
70.166.117.212



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 Re: Concern with my TD 6 1947-9...white smoke.....and in reply to thomaskd44, 02-14-2014 22:02:02  
Operating on gas start up; there is no white smoke. Only after I have switched to diesel. And, like stated; when I disconnect the injector, there is no white smoke. When I connect the injector, white smokes emits. That tells me that when fuel is injected into the cylinder the exhaust valve is not closed and the raw/unburned fuel goes out the exhaust. Am I correct? One other important thing: when disconnecting the injector the same r.p.m. does not change; when disconnecting the other three cylinders -on at a time- they drop in r.p.m. So, what is happening?

Tho

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Darald

02-15-2014 20:17:07
184.12.186.247



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 Re: Concern with my TD 6 1947-9...white smoke.....and in reply to thomaskd44, 02-15-2014 14:19:12  
If there are no abnormal noises from the valve train when running, get this engine good and warm before taking anything apart. Use a small amount of diesel, like a few gallons with a rich mixture of a good diesel fuel lubricant, from any tractor dealer, and get the engine up to operating temp at high idle, you may be surprised how some things fix themselves with lube and heat. I have had these IH gas start diesels, create white smoke after a lengthy storage, only to respond to lube and heat. The first thing, change oil in the pump.

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8V71

02-15-2014 13:24:55
204.14.163.234



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 Re: Concern with my TD 6 1947-9...white smoke.....and in reply to thomaskd44, 02-14-2014 22:02:02  
Probly a bad injector or low compression.Easy way to test is to swap injector from an other cyl and see if it follows.You hope to see it move to the next hole. If it stays the problem most likly is internal.Also in that case check that valves have clearance at TDC on that cyl and check for excess crankcase psi.



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thomaskd44

02-15-2014 13:00:19
70.166.117.212



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 Re: Concern with my TD 6 1947-9...white smoke.....and in reply to thomaskd44, 02-14-2014 22:02:02  
I enjoyed observing the Farmall tractor. Thank you for showing it. That is correct; I moved the gear until I was in time. And it is correct about the gas verses diesel. Also it doesn't make any difference whether the number one is at the front or at the rear. Because it is a diesel engine, it can operate either way. One cylinder starting the firing order can start at the rear or it can start at the front, as long as the timing/fire order is correct. I think this is correct. That is why this engine operates with number one being at the rear. Okay, okay.

Monday, I will take off the cap, and the highest plug and fill with oil.

I think the reason that there is white smoke from the rear cylinder is because of exhaust valve not closing all the way. Could be carbon; stuck valve, or something else. I will pull the valve cover Monday. Once when I had removed the spark plug on the rear cylinder, I entered a screw drive into the plug hole to feel for the top of the piston. It was unusual in relation to a gas engine. However, there was something loose inside -that I am confident. I could move something in there. Read the above in the other example I gave and read here let me know -anyone- your comment(s). Thanx Al I remain appreciative and wishing you a enjoyable weekend.

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AJB-830

02-15-2014 19:01:04
50.50.146.211



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 Re: Concern with my TD 6 1947-9...white smoke.....and in reply to thomaskd44, 02-15-2014 13:00:19  
Thomas, once you get the valve cover off, check that the starting valve is closing on the bad cylinder. If that valve does not seal when you switch to diesel, you will probably get the symptoms you are seeing. If it runs without a miss on gas, then it probably is not the exhaust valve. If valve(s) look OK, then it's probably the injector. Al



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thomaskd44

02-15-2014 09:01:33
70.166.117.212



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 Re: Concern with my TD 6 1947-9...white smoke.....and in reply to thomaskd44, 02-14-2014 22:02:02  
Oh, the rotor turns counter clockwise



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thomaskd44

02-15-2014 08:59:57
70.166.117.212



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 Re: Concern with my TD 6 1947-9...white smoke.....and in reply to thomaskd44, 02-14-2014 22:02:02  
Okay, gentlemen. First, thank you.

Number one closest to the radiator. I have number one at the rear, just the opposite; going 1-3-4-2 -2 being at the radiator, and the engine starts and runs, there is no white smoke at the rear cylinder. There is only white smoke when the engine is running on diesel. So, having the cylinder number one closest to the radiator, then number 3-4-2 would be going toward the rear, correct? When loosening the connector to the injector, and the white smoke diminishes and there is no change in r,p.m. then could we say a valve -usually exhaust- is leaking on compression stroke. When tightening the connector, the white smoke returns.

The screw cap at the pump: on the side there is two small plugs. When I remove the highest plug nothing came out; however, it was wet and seemed to be diesel fuel. On my perkins diesel -1968- the injector pump is filled with oil and has a drain tube, where the pump seeks its own level. So the injector pump here would be filling the pump -at the cap- with oil to the point of the highest plug.

I am going out to the dozer this morning after I receive words, and see what I can do. Thanx in advance

Tho

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d9gdon

02-16-2014 05:58:52
76.1.103.111



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 Re: Concern with my TD 6 1947-9...white smoke.....and in reply to thomaskd44, 02-15-2014 08:59:57  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

I don't think anyone answered your question above: number one cylinder is closest to the radiator, the next cylinder is number two, then number three, then number four. 1-3-4-2 is the firing order, not the order of the cylinders in the block. Hope that helps.



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AJB-830

02-15-2014 12:23:41
50.50.146.211



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 Re: Concern with my TD 6 1947-9...white smoke.....and in reply to thomaskd44, 02-15-2014 08:59:57  

Thomas, the timing would only effect running on gas, not diesel. Since the MD runs conter-clockwise, find #1 on the cap and work backward going 1-3-4-2. You might be in time since you say the engine runs on gas. This could be because you said you moved the gear to get it in time.
Attached is a picture of the pump on my 46 MD when I got it in 1968. It should be the same as your 47 TD6. I would drain the oil and then add until it comes out of the test plug. If it is full of diesel, it could be that the previous owner just drained it until it no longer came out of the test plug. Until you run it for a while, you won't really know how much diesel gets in. They will all leak a little. When I used my MD, it would gain about a 1/2 cup after running all day. Just ask if you have more questions. Al

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AJB-830

02-15-2014 08:16:50
50.50.146.211



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 Re: Concern with my TD 6 1947-9...white smoke.....and in reply to thomaskd44, 02-14-2014 22:02:02  
Thomas, Yes the No. 1 cylinder is the one in the front by the radiator. Then the timing would be 1-3-4-2. The cap on your injection pump is to add motor oil to the pump. Since you just got your tractor running, I would drain all the oil out of the injection pump and then re-fill it up to the level plug. This is a 1/4 inch plug up about 2 inches above the drain plug. You can use the same oil as what you put in the engine. If the pump was leaking, you might find that some diesel will drain out with the old oil. As far as the white smoke, it could be a bad injector or a valve not closing. Good Luck. Al

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Diydave

02-15-2014 05:09:55
96.244.153.212



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 Re: Concern with my TD 6 1947-9...white smoke.....and in reply to thomaskd44, 02-14-2014 22:02:02  
Sounds like you have a bad injector, or something out of order in the valve train, at that cylinder. Check the valve adjustment, push rods, do a wet compression check, etc. As for the cap on the injector pump, it might be for adding motor oil to the injector pump. Some older pumps were independently lubed, meaning they had their own oil reservoir, cap and drain plug, separate from the motor's lube system. Don't know if this is the case with your IH...

And I would accept Dick's definition of #1 cylinder.

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Dick2

02-15-2014 04:16:20
75.172.222.153



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 Re: Concern with my TD 6 1947-9...white smoke.....and in reply to thomaskd44, 02-14-2014 22:02:02  
I think that there are probably exceptions to the rule, but I was taught many, many years ago that #1 cylinder was the one fartherest from the flywheel.

Does anyone know of engines where that rule does not apply?



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8V71

02-15-2014 13:32:51
204.14.163.234



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 Re: Concern with my TD 6 1947-9...white smoke.....and in reply to Dick2, 02-15-2014 04:16:20  
If you get involved with a Deutz engine it does apply. #1 cyl and main cap at fly wheel end. The new oil cooled engines are this way.With out a diagram valve adjustment was confusing.



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