Pinion shaft preload question

This my first go at preloading a pinion in a case tractor. I installed new races and new bearings. As I am preloading to the max preload spec of 12 inch lbs the clearance between the 2nd and 3rd gears gets less and less. I can still turn 2nd gear back and forth on spline at 12 inch lbs of preload turning torque so
there is less than 0.0005 (1/2 a thou). The spec in the book is 0.001-0.006 thou. Based on my observations of clearance diminishing as I increase the preload; once new bearing and new races wear in there will be 0.001 or more of clearance. The service manual does not specify if the clearance is for worn bearings or new bearings. I can order a different size spacer to allow more clearance between 2nd and 3rd gear yet figured I'd get a seadoned opinion from someone here. My current spacer is 0.219" so I'd buy a 0.214" spacer.
 
I know the pinion bearings will warm up a bit even though immersed in gear oil so possibly the thinner spacer would be a good idea? Also, how many thousands of an inch of wear will occur with new tapered bearings and races? Before I took out the old pinion there was 0.035" of end play and the bearing and races were very damaged from moisture and spalling.
 
a person needs a tractor model before can even start thinking on that. pictures go a long way also.
 
My tractor is a W3 or commonly called a 530. Its a 1961 with mechanical shuttle. I can post a photo from the service manual tonight or tomorrow. Thank you
 
(quoted from post at 22:08:10 04/08/18) My tractor is a W3 or commonly called a 530. Its a 1961 with mechanical shuttle. I can post a photo from the service manual tonight or tomorrow. Thank you

HERE IS A PHOTO FROM THE NEW UPDATED MANUAL:






HERE ARE TWO PAGES FROM MY OLD SERVICE MANUAL. I DREW A STAR BESIDE THE SPACER THAT COMES IN A WIDE RANGE OF THICKNESSES.



 
(quoted from post at 02:14:52 04/09/18)
(quoted from post at 22:08:10 04/08/18) My tractor is a W3 or commonly called a 530. Its a 1961 with mechanical shuttle. I can post a photo from the service manual tonight or tomorrow. Thank you

HERE IS A PHOTO FROM THE NEW UPDATED MANUAL:



I have done hundreds of those transaxles over the years and if you only need one size thinner spacer I personally would use a disc sander or something similar and thin that spacer down till the proper preload is obtained at the specified spacer clearance. that spaces is simply that , it has no loading or thrust bearing function, Just thin it down, its not rocket science.



HERE ARE TWO PAGES FROM MY OLD SERVICE MANUAL. I DREW A STAR BESIDE THE SPACER THAT COMES IN A WIDE RANGE OF THICKNESSES.



 
So the specs call for 0.005-0.009" backlash. After removing all carrier shims from left hand side to get used ring gear close as possible to used pinion gear I am at 0.023" backlash. I put all the carrier shims on right side to keep carrier preload correct. Carrier is at max preload and pinion at max preload since using all new bearings and races. I feel the ring and pinion contact pattern may suffice. Any feedback?




Prussian Blue after 3 coated ring gear teeth went pass pinion and then blue got copied to 3 more ring gear teeth




Prussian Blue copied onto pinion

 
(quoted from post at 22:45:32 04/11/18) So the specs call for 0.005-0.009" backlash. After removing all carrier shims from left hand side to get used ring gear close as possible to used pinion gear I am at 0.023" backlash. I put all the carrier shims on right side to keep carrier preload correct. Carrier is at max preload and pinion at max preload since using all new bearings and races. I feel the ring and pinion contact pattern may suffice. Any feedback?




Prussian Blue copied onto pinion

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h213/godtool/730D63


How many shims do you have on the RH side? I would be very reluctant to run it with that much backlash because of tooth loading. How much spider gear backlash do you have , especially on the RH side gear side.

There is really no way of moving it to the right by standard setup procedures and if it were me I would probably shim the bearing out on the LH side gear, we are talking used parts and that may sound like an unusual fix but it would be a good fix and get the R/P backlash within spec. I realize that this is an unorthodox way of doing it but I would rather have the R/P at or near the bottom of the spec. Is there any evidence of cracking on the brake surface of the LH bearing bearing housing, I have seen many brake plates cracked in a circular crack the size of the inner pilot /oring surface, caused by improper loading because of the failure of the old fibre washers letting the pinion to ring clearance get excessive and side loading the bearing area. I was very reluctant to post this fix here as it is out of the norm but that ring has to be moved over. running with no shim is acceptable but not with that much backlash.
I have done many dozens of them in 50+ yrs and sometimes you have to think outside the box, but you do not want to do this over.
 
Mel, thank you for your feedback. Both LH and RH carrier housing are new and no cracks. Currently I have 0.035" of shims on RH side. I preloaded carrier before I installed pinion. I had 6-7 lbs of preload with 0.040" of shims and with 0.035" I have 7.5-8 ft lbs of preload.

I replaced the fiber thrust washers between side gears and center wheel pinions with the new style metal thrust washers. I will take it apart today and double check the backlash on both side gears.

I'd say that would be a really good plan to shim RH Carrier bearing race. I have extra shim stock to make a shim. I'll check new carrier housing for cracks too.
 
I thought it was kinda odd to measure side gear to pinion backlash with no preload when measuring on bench. I'll just push down hard?

Also I wonder if a 0.020" shim behind bearing race would be a good idea?
 
Set the side gear upright with the carrier sitting on it and measure the spider backlash with the weight on the gear, lift the spider up against the cage to get accurate backlash readings, then do the same on the other side, if you have a SM it shows the proper procedure, but, If you need to go thinner to tighten up spider clearance the net effect would be to make your problem worse. Whichever is easier to shim, behind the bearing or the race, I would add more than enough to get the .005-.009, then you have some latitude for future adjustments if needed if you have a few shims under the LH carrier.
 

Hi Mel

So I some brass sheet stock and it was 0.020" thick. I removed the new race from the LH housing and traced race out and using jig saw and backing board for support I cut a shim out and used a small grind stone to remove the burrs. I also ground down outside of new race so I could pop it out of housing if needed. I did a gentle testfit and discovered that just before I tighten up carrier there was a hair of backlash yet when all 4 studsbolts tightened up, no backlash. So I will add a 5 thou regular shim to LH side carrier tomorrow and see if I'm in spec. If all is good I'll press in my brand new race.
 
I'm thinking the brass shim may be too soft for the thrust side of R\P? I can easily make a shim or shims out of actual shim material?
 
Looks like I will try to locate a piece of 0.020" stainless steel flat shim stock. There is this "Blue tempered shim stock" which is similar to spring steel flat shim stock. I'll see if our local machine shop has some shim stock. I feel the brass shim stock may eventually thin out over time. It appears in my research you need shim stock that is hard yet not brittle.
 
I made a mistake and now its corrected. I had 0.035" shim material on RH SIDE. When I put the 0.020" shim behind LH carrier bearing race, I subtracted 0.20" from RH side instead of adding 0.020". NOW with bolts\studs all torqued on both sides with correct preload I have 0.011" to 0.12" backlash in R/P. I think if I add another 0.005"-0.010" shim behind race on LH side I'll have backlash in spec. I have photos of RP pattern I'll post tonight.
 
LH Carrier housing with race that I can pop out and 0.020" shim I cut out. Looks like I will be adding somewhere from 0.005 or more\less to get backlash in spec.




Dial Indicator Set-up:




RP contact pattern. I held one brake on so pinion would really mark ring gear. It appears to me ring gear needs to be closer to pinion still and pinion is rubbing tighter towards toe of ring gear.



 
Forgot to mention backlash between side gears and center wheel pinions well within spec. I wouldn't want to put thinner shims in.

I just ordered this off amazon dot ca for $35.00 including shipping. I figure that's affordable and money well spent. I think it will be better than the brass I have or the tempered brass I couild buy in town.

[i:2d4a359cea]"Precision Brand Carbon Steel 1008 Shim Stock Assortment, Full Hard Temper, AISI 1008/AISI 1010, ASTM A109 for Chemistry, 0.001", 0.0015", 0.002", 0.003", 0.004", 0.005", 0.006", 0.007", 0.008", 0.010", 0.012",/0.015" Thick, 6" Width, 12" Length (Pack of 12)"[/i:2d4a359cea]
 
I would suggest you google 'Acceptable " contact patterns fro ring and pinions and compare, I have been wondering where the discrepancy is that would cause you to have to take such drastic shimming procedures, what does the fit look like as far as pinion depth into the ring, if that is not correct it would cause the setup pinion depth is not adjustable like it is on the larger trans axles of the same design as used in the 680 series, in those there was a fixture that the race fit into and a bridge that went over the end of the pinion sitting in its race and feeler gage readings were taken to set the proper pinion depth.
 
(quoted from post at 15:57:56 04/15/18) I would suggest you google 'Acceptable " contact patterns fro ring and pinions and compare, I have been wondering where the discrepancy is that would cause you to have to take such drastic shimming procedures, what does the fit look like as far as pinion depth into the ring, if that is not correct it would cause the setup pinion depth is not adjustable like it is on the larger trans axles of the same design as used in the 680 series, in those there was a fixture that the race fit into and a bridge that went over the end of the pinion sitting in its race and feeler gage readings were taken to set the proper pinion depth.

I was thinking the same thing. The LH carrier housing is a new aftermarket part. I was going to compare the depth and thickness of it compared to my old cracked one. The mesh of the pinion and ring gear look good to me yet the pattern is questionable. This used ring and pinion look identical to my chipped ring and pinion. Possibly this ring and pinion are just well used? I'll look over and double check all the sizes.
 
By looking at contact patterns on net, I am thinking pinion could be shimmed further into ring gear, thus moving ring geat to LH side so as to use regular shimming methods.
 
I have been thinking about that but at loss to explain why with new cups and cones that the pinion position has changed, even wear does not explain that, where do the edges of the pinion come in relation to the area where they meet the ring teeth they should be close to flush.
 
(quoted from post at 19:03:53 04/15/18) I have been thinking about that but at loss to explain why with new cups and cones that the pinion position has changed, even wear does not explain that, where do the edges of the pinion come in relation to the area where they meet the ring teeth they should be close to flush.

I just went and took these photos. Could it be that this pinion and ring were from two different used sets and they just need to wear in? They are not a matched set?



 
(quoted from post at 19:03:53 04/15/18) I have been thinking about that but at loss to explain why with new cups and cones that the pinion position has changed, even wear does not explain that, where do the edges of the pinion come in relation to the area where they meet the ring teeth they should be close to flush.

Heres a photo before I took out the old ring and pinion. Pinion had 0.035" of endplay and left hand carrier was cracked into 3 pieces. Ring gear had several broken teeth. You can kind of see where the pinion had not been rubbing on ring gear teeth. I will keep an eye on my edges of new carrier housings in future.
 


How does that pinion depth compare with the picture u sent me, even with the chipped up teeth the contact pattern looks good on your old set. I am still trying to rectify why the ring has to be moved that far to get backlash.
 
(quoted from post at 05:40:21 04/16/18)

How does that pinion depth compare with the picture u sent me, even with the chipped up teeth the contact pattern looks good on your old set. I am still trying to rectify why the ring has to be moved that far to get backlash.

Contact pattern looks good on new used set. Going out to shop right now to see if there is measurement differences between old broken carrier and new carrier, etc.
 
(quoted from post at 05:40:21 04/16/18)

How does that pinion depth compare with the picture u sent me, even with the chipped up teeth the contact pattern looks good on your old set. I am still trying to rectify why the ring has to be moved that far to get backlash.

Pinion teeth appear to be going deep (all the way) into ring gear teeth. It looks like nearly two pinion teeth are sunk deep into ring gear teeth.

I compared old carrier housing with new ones and they look very similar however the new carrier housing actually places the pinion side gear and its bearing closer to ring gear. If I were to use old housing I'd have to put 0.040" under bearing race! I double checked and triple checked my measurements.

I tried another pinion side gear on RH side that had an old bearing on it, and I still had to use the 0.020" shim under race to get low backlash and the backlash was 0.009". Better but this side gear I can't use due to spalling on teeth that mesh with bull gear.

I actually bought a better set of pinion side gears because my initial set the teeth were very badly spalled. I ordered a good used set from Jean Claude Marleau and they had a different profile shape of gear teeth. I felt they were noisy and rough sounding when I placed them on my center wheel pinions when bench tested. I thought they may be incorrect so I sent one of my original pinion side gears to Jean Claude to match up. See first photo below:




This 2nd photo shows the pinion side gear teeth profile that matches my pinion gear teeth profile. It meshes smoothly and quietly when tested on bench:




SEE THIRD FOURTH PHOTO BELOW:

Left side of photos: Pinion Side Gear that does not match my shape of pinion gear teeth in center wheel. This was first pair of pinion side gears I received from Jean Claude.

Right side of photos: Pinion Side Gear that match my shape pinion of gear teeth in center wheel. I sent Jean Claude one of my old pinion side gears to match up. He sent me a pair which are currently installed.






I placed the two different styles of side gear pinions on my center wheel pinion using using an appropriate thrust washer that gave within spec of backlash. I could definitely tell that if I used the side pinions Jean Claude sent me the first time I would not have to use the shim behind the race and most likely have to have carrier housing shims on both sides.

My question now is, couldshould have I used the side gear pinions with the gear teeth that don't match the shape of the teeth in the pinions in the center wheel? Maybe someone who owned machine years before me used the wrong pinion side gears?
 
I was just looking at my photos and the pinion side gears that have teeth that I found ran smoothly in the center wheel pinion gears really meshed deeply together. They quiet and spun smoothly and quietly with backlash at minimum spec.

I remember correctly the first set that Jean Claude sent me back in the fall; in order for them to run smoothly I had to put a thick thrust washer in there and the backlash was excessive and the teeth did not mesh deeply. If I put a thinner thrust washer in, to put backlash in spec, the side gear did not spin smoothly and made clunking noises.
 
Mel,

Because I bought a used machine, I'm thinking a past owner had the wrong pinion side gears installed at one time. I don't have enough knowledge working on this tractor to know. First case transaxle I have rebuilt. It turns out the 1st set of pinion side gears Jean Claude Marleau sent me ware very likely the ones I should have used. I must apologize that these teeth on the pinion side gears match the pinions in the center wheel.

[b:f72ed7d0fd]Thank you to you Mel you helped me figure this out yet would like confirmation to use these pinion side gears in first photo below?[/b:f72ed7d0fd] I pulled out my good used ring gear and put these other side gears on it and adjusted thrust washers for correct backlash. I ended up using an old style fiber thrust washer 0.123" thick and a 0.025" brass homemade shim to get the correct backlash. I had a machinist last year turn both sides of my center wheel to face off damage I had caused. I figure that's why I had to use 0.148" thickness of thrust washer and brass shim for a test fit. [b:f72ed7d0fd] Does the mesh depth in 1st photo below look ok?
[/b:f72ed7d0fd]

I installed this LH pinion side gear and ended up with only one 0.005 carrier shim to get my ring and pinion backlash to 0.006"



 
I decided to use the 2nd set of good used pinion side gears I received from Jean Claude Marleau since it was going to cost more for thrust washers and shims for other set. It's very possible either set could be used yet the 2nd set matched what my tractor had. Its my first Case tractor transaxle rebuild so big learning curve for me.

The steel shim material from Amazon arrived in the mail. I took the brand new race out of its shrink wrap and suddenly discovered it was deeper than the race that I was shimming, at least 0.035" deeper! So I simply installed new race. Turned out I needed to insert 0.015" of the original carrier shims on LH carrier housing to get correct backlash. The LH carrier housing is a new aftermarket item and now I know why some say always buy OEM parts. I could have returned the aftermarket housing yet the seller has been very reliable, helpful, and quick at shipping me parts.

Now that I have pressed a new race into LH aftermarket carrier housing its a very tight fit whereas the new Case LH housing with new race has been going in much easier during the shimming process. I took some 1/2" ready rod, washers, and nuts to press LH carrier housing in and out for testing. I can simply use a small screw driver to pry housing out a bit to use a pry bar and pry a bit on either side to get housing out to fit washers and nuts behind holes in transaxle housing. Half hour to carefully install or remove LH housing.

I then ground off pinion nut. Extracted pinion\countershaft and gear set.

I then put carrier back to establish 8 ft. lbs. turning torque.

Just waiting on new pinion nut to arrive in a few days. I feel like a pro transaxle rebuilder so far.

I a few photos if anyone interested and using string and electronic fish scale and manual spring fish scale for measuring carrier and pinion bearing preload.
 
Just wanted to correct myself that the aftermarket carrier housing is for LH side that has been very tight installing during test fits AND RH side carrier housing is an OEM Case part that goes in tightly yet easy to install or remove with my fingers.

When I initially bought machine a few years ago, the previous owner had bought an original Case carrier housing yet it was at the bottom of a box of parts he gave me. I honestly can't remember him telling me what it was for. Recently he told me he saw a crack developing in the LH carrier housing. He noticed the crack when he put new brakes bands on both sides. The funny thing is it was a RH Case Carrier Housing in a LH labelled box!
 
Cariboo, I would not use a fibre thrust washer in any circumstance, they were prone to chunking out and failing and allowing the ring and pinion clearance to increase the thickness of that fibre washer, that in turn allowed failure of the teeth on the ring and pinion to fail from improper loading, if you had material remover from the side gear thrust faces that would explain problems shimming, You could use 2 steel washers instead of one steel and one fibre. The fibre washers were used for years with no issues but as torque handling capabilities increased so did carrier thrust against the side gear and the change to steel was implemented.
 
(quoted from post at 10:28:36 04/26/18) Cariboo, I would not use a fibre thrust washer in any circumstance, they were prone to chunking out and failing and allowing the ring and pinion clearance to increase the thickness of that fibre washer, that in turn allowed failure of the teeth on the ring and pinion to fail from improper loading, if you had material remover from the side gear thrust faces that would explain problems shimming, You could use 2 steel washers instead of one steel and one fibre. The fibre washers were used for years with no issues but as torque handling capabilities increased so did carrier thrust against the side gear and the change to steel was implemented.

Thank you Mel. I actually bought two new metal thrust washers for 2nd set of side gears I'm using earlier in the year. A fellow in the US sold me all new gaskets and told me to use the new metal thrust washers.

There is one fiber washer on pinioncountershaft next to oil slinger gear. I figure that one would be ok to use? Or should I get a metal washer to go there? Maybe buy a grade 8 washer and have it machined to same thickness?
 
IIRC, they increased the diameter of the steel spacer and the oil slinger face ran against that directly, check me out on the parts sites online, I do not know if that was a update to earlier transaxles or just a later production thing in models after the 530, dont take this as gospel but I think it is correct, I will research it but a good grade of steel washer would be an up grade from the fiber.
 


I researched the 580 uses a spacer and no washer. G46070 upgrades to A39249 (1st used trans. S/N 12387190)

This is what my 530 calls for:

G46070 WASHER (1/8" thick x 1-5/8" I.D. x 2-3/8" O.D.)
(Used prior to trans. S/N 2387190)

G13260 BUSHING SPACER - 4th gear, 1-1/4" long (w/rivet)
(Used prior to trans. S/N 2387190)

My present washer measures 0.125". I wonder if mild steel would be ok. I could make one from 1/8" plate. I may have some Stainless steel. Yet Friday I will call around to see if a grade 5 or 8 washer that I.D. and thickness is available.

So far I can't find a metal one online yet I will cal the fellow who sold me gaskets and carrier metal thrust washers to see if there is a metal washer replacement for G46070.
 
I would give him the measurements of your spacer/ washer combination and see if the 580 thick collar matches, I suspect it will, I believe the updated collar has a half round "key" to fit the pinion shaft spline to secure it from rotating. the length of the new spacer should be appx the length of your present spacer and fiber washer.
 

So my supplier is sending me a good used spacer. The price is is very affordable. Hopefully quick shipping is affordable too. Thank you for your expertise Mel!
 
So good used bushing A39249 in place and pinion preload completed.




Ring gear in and back lash measured in 6 different places 0.005-0.0055"

 

Looks good, I have seen ring gears with a lot more runout than that, if you have good rolling torque I would just seal it up and put it together.
 

I did not peen pinion nut just in case I needed to disassemble it. Sure enough I needed to remove it to press rear race in for main shaft. I then reassembled pinion and inserted main shaft as described in service manual. Since I'm using new races and bearing cones on main shaft there is no description of preload on main shaft bearings other than 0.002-0.005" main shaft end play. So just to clarify no preload and go with minimum main shaft end play of 0.002"?
 
WHY does everyone seem to think that tapered roller bearings, other than pinion and differential bearings, need PRELOAD, including wheel bearings?

Pinion and differential bearings are pretty much the "oddballs" of the bearing world and get preloaded.

Most other applications, including transmission shaft bearings typically do NOT get preloaded, and a couple of thousandths of endplay is the norm.
 
(quoted from post at 09:09:56 05/14/18) WHY does everyone seem to think that tapered roller bearings, other than pinion and differential bearings, need PRELOAD, including wheel bearings?

Pinion and differential bearings are pretty much the "oddballs" of the bearing world and get preloaded.

Most other applications, including transmission shaft bearings typically do NOT get preloaded, and a couple of thousandths of endplay is the norm.

Thank you Bob.
 

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